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How Free is your state?
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Strange Famous Forum > Social stuff. Political stuff. KNOWMORE

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jakethesnake
guy who cried about wrestling being real


Joined: 03 Feb 2006
Posts: 6290
Location: airstrip one
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We also have white gas attendants but alas, only because we have run those other colored folks and "outsiders" out of business. And your state has amassed more oil refinerie$ and has become richer than mine (Save Our Shores, never forget). You have won.

I'd love to see the nice side of Jersey some day.
Post Tue Jun 07, 2011 6:54 pm
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redball



Joined: 12 May 2006
Posts: 6870
Location: Northern New Jersey
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jakethesnake wrote:
Anyway, redball you know what I think of jersey. However, I am genuinely glad that you do enjoy the place you live, though. I'm also glad that we both live in a place where we can have this kind of discourse and not be imprisoned, or killed, etc. and that we have the ability to move to a different state if we don't like some of the policies there.


Yes. My problem has never really been your state, though I don't like some of the policies there. It's that you're talking shit about this state though I doubt you've spent any time here except driving through on 80 or the Turnpike. I say this because most of your jibes are based on stereotypes that are, at best, informed purely from throwaway TV shows.

However, I still maintain that "individual freedoms" are more subjective than this report wants to classify them. The gas pumping thing is actually a great example because absolutely no one in this state ever complains about that. It's something that only visitors have a problem with, and maybe businesses. Everyone understands that the price of gas will not go down if they do away with that law, and everyone is happy not to have to do it. It's a win-win.

But other freedoms listed are weighed as being more important than other freedoms. Seat belt laws? The reason seat belt laws exist is to try to limit the injury and loss of life during an accident. The reason this is a social issue that should be enforced is because of the negative externality that occurs when someone who isn't wearing a seatbelt is hurt or killed. If I cause an accident and you're killed because you're not wearing your seatbelt then the onus is on me to prove that you died because of your negligence rather than mine. Seat belts eliminate much of that dilemma by protecting the occupants of the vehicles to a reasonable degree, allowing the fault of the accident to speak for the liability of the results.

Gun control laws harm your ability to obtain guns, hopefully for legal use, but they protect my individual freedom to not be shot by an untraceable gun.

Environmental protection laws are necessary to prevent further pollution by businesses and individuals that harm the individual rights of millions to clean water and air, and I think we can agree that those rights are more important than the right to dump shit wherever, or the right to not recycle.

Almost every time you regulate something you are balancing rights that some hold dear against rights that others do. Extreme example: Remember that whole civil war thing? It was due to the rights of African Americans being deemed more important than the rights of Southern plantation owners. Some of those other rights I flippantly listed before are similar in nature. They were once considered to be important to the people of this country and it was seen as an infringement of civil liberties to take them away. There's people that still talk about how horrible Affirmative Action is. I'm sure there's people in parts of the country that pine for the 1950's when they could refuse to let black people in their stores. It is, after all, their individual right to decide which customers they see.

We've come a long way since then. People have largely realized that taking away bullshit "rights" and restoring the rights of others is correct. While you may see NJ as some sort of draconian hell where individuals are held captive of the state, I think only the richest assholes in this state really believe that's true. Though property taxes are pretty rough here, nobody wants to get rid of the services they pay for... well, unless they only impact the poor. Fuck those guys.
Post Tue Jun 07, 2011 7:08 pm
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T-Wrex
p00ny tang


Joined: 30 Jun 2002
Posts: 6378
Location: Detroit, Michigan
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why was age of consent not considered in state rankings?
Post Tue Jun 07, 2011 7:26 pm
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jakethesnake
guy who cried about wrestling being real


Joined: 03 Feb 2006
Posts: 6290
Location: airstrip one
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T-Wrex wrote:
why was age of consent not considered in state rankings?


Prostitution was.

redball I'm pretty sure the first post I made said the report was subjective, and agree with most of what you said in your last post. And yes, I'm obviously just making silly comments about NJ based on stereotypes. It's just way too fun.
Post Tue Jun 07, 2011 8:26 pm
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redball



Joined: 12 May 2006
Posts: 6870
Location: Northern New Jersey
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I still love you. Invitation to visit stands.
Post Tue Jun 07, 2011 8:58 pm
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phataccino



Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 4771
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jakethesnake wrote:
One could also say that forcing gas stations to pump their own gas promotes poverty in that you are required to pay a bunch of people effectively minimum wage on top of your regular employees, which probably reduces the rate at which they are paid as well. So for your cheap gas you are contributing to a classist system designed to screw over immigrants and non-whites.

I am a guy that's nice enough to allow you to live in a landfill-masquerading-as-a-state. I could be using my freedom to dump more waste there instead of in the nice parts of the country, but like I said I'm a nice guy. I mean, think how great life would be...

My "cheap gas" is actually more expensive because of the regulations against pumping your own gas. And in my town (and certainly the state, based on demographic data) most of the people pumping gas are white Americans. In my own anecdotal experience a good percentage of them are ex-cons, though. Anyway, I don't really give a shit one way or the other, and I didn't even check where my state ranks in this study, I just thought the phrase "right to pump your own gas" was ridiculous, but knowing that it was just a jab at Redball and New Jersey changes that a bit. I wasn't sure if you were saying that in earnest or not, but clearly you weren't.
Post Tue Jun 07, 2011 9:58 pm
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Inedible Condiment



Joined: 30 Sep 2008
Posts: 1045
Location: Halifax, NS
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I like pumping my own gas.
Your state law would annoy me redball. But infringing on my liberty? Nah.
Post Tue Jun 07, 2011 10:32 pm
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redball



Joined: 12 May 2006
Posts: 6870
Location: Northern New Jersey
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I used to like pumping my own gas too. I mean, I worked at a gas station for 2 years before moving to this state. Initially I was pretty prejudiced against NJ myself, and the whole gas pumping thing was part of it. In fact, I was so sure I wouldn't like NJ that I originally had my wife move out to Dayton after she left college. I only moved here when it was clear that my life in Ohio was a mess.

It's true that fueling the car would be quicker if I could PaP and go at my own leisure, so I at least enjoy that when I leave the state. Honestly, though, that doesn't make up for the inconvenience of getting out of the car, dealing with filth gas pumps, and having to stand in the elements. Though I still try to avoid the gas station in the rain, as I hate to see the attendant have to stand out in that shit, I really appreciate not having to get out of my car when it's 100 degrees, or 0 degrees either.

It's a cultural thing, but it's one that most people pick up very quickly. It's jarring when I travel. I can always smell the gas on my hands after I fill up. But at least I can still operate the pump and I know how to use the PaP systems so I won't accidentally drive off and screw up some poor cashier's shift. Protip: always get a receipt.
Post Tue Jun 07, 2011 11:07 pm
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Confidential



Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 2040
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jakethesnake wrote:
It definitely has a libertarian twist, that's obvious. New Hampshire has such a high rank because of 0 income and 0 sales tax though, and things like a lack of seatbelt laws, eminent domain laws, cigarett bans, etc. These are liberties that everyone in the state is afforded. Not because we give businesses tax cuts.

Governator Arnold fucked California over (including his mistresses), whether you get the data from Libertarians or not, you can't deny this. If I were you I'd look at this data and be pissed.

edit: and are you trying to say that George Mason university isn't a valid source? You listed a former attorney general and a nobel prize winner on the board of directors. Did you look at it first?

You are forced pay for someone else's In-vitro fertilizations. What is your idea of freedom anyway?


If it wasn't Governer Schawrzenegger fucking over california, it would have been another neoliberal. I mean, the problem is deeper than an individual in office. Rather, it is an ideology of free market etc., corporate tax breaks, loopholes, free drilling, then when the bubble burst (which it will) just treat it like an anomaly, and pass off the burden to the middle class and working poor.

i wasn't really questioning the validity of the University as a whole. Data is useless until you interpret it. And how data is interpreted, the method of collection, and the analysis is loaded with ideological baggage. In this case that is free market, individualist, classical economics and liberal definitions of freedom. i'm not against using research to advance a political cause, nor am I against value-laden research. I was just saying the particular values embodied by this project are clearly in support of the corporate and capitalist classes.

Yes, I looked at the board of directors. i saw a few nobel prize winners and the economics professors - don't know much about their work, but i assume judging by the rest of their cohorts, and by the organization's mission of celebrating privatization and market principles, that they are likely in line with liberal economic theory. Elenor Ostrom won the nobel prize in economics for her work on common property, but it isn't likely that we see her on their board. The rest of the board include Koch industries execs, as in the one's who sponsored the anti-union bills in Wisconsin.

I don't know how I would define freedom. It's more of an existential question than a policy one. But, for practical purposes, if I had to operationalize some "data", I would look at maybe which states keep education free, in which states can I observe police activity without getting a beat down, living wage laws, etc.
Post Tue Jun 07, 2011 11:28 pm
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Captiv8



Joined: 25 Aug 2006
Posts: 8501
Location: Third Coast
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I'm surprised Michigan wasn't ranked even worse, given Rick Snyder's totalitarian antics. Love the state, hate the government.
Post Wed Jun 08, 2011 9:33 am
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reverse midas



Joined: 01 Dec 2006
Posts: 523
Location: crack rock city
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wow to those talking this shit about new hampshire in here, you honestly don't know what the fuck you're talking about.
Post Wed Jun 08, 2011 11:18 am
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reverse midas



Joined: 01 Dec 2006
Posts: 523
Location: crack rock city
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reverse midas wrote:
wow to those talking this shit about new hampshire in here, you honestly don't know what the fuck you're talking about.


and that aside, these rankings are pretty useless.
Post Wed Jun 08, 2011 11:19 am
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jrspudsquad



Joined: 01 Apr 2005
Posts: 395
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Shit talking New Jersey should be locked away in an attic with jokes about airline food and high gas prices. I live in PA and I swear i'm more enthralled when someone talks about the weather.
Post Wed Jun 08, 2011 11:30 am
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FuseONE



Joined: 11 Jul 2002
Posts: 1715
Location: Newark, DE
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This study could not have been done too recently, as Delaware is ranked 39th. We pretty recently passed a same-sex civil union law and medical marijuana just passed, too. And of course, we also have no sales tax. Weird.
Post Wed Jun 08, 2011 1:18 pm
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remind



Joined: 22 Jun 2008
Posts: 2195
Location: NJ
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jakethesnake wrote:
I'd love to see the nice side of Jersey some day.


I'm 10 minutes from the beach in Monmouth County. Come through before I move to NY and have my freedom oppressed to the utmost (well, in the US)!

I like maps.
Post Wed Jun 08, 2011 1:39 pm
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