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OK, I'm officially tired of Sarah Palin now
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icarus502
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Self Conscious wrote:


nobody except Steve Quinn of the Associated Press,


At the time was the boyfriend of one of SP's closest aids. Still claims to have seen her covered belly. How does this dispute anything?


Quote:

Erika Bolstad of McClatchy Newspapers, Sam Bishop (now) of the Fairbanks News-Miner, Julia O'Malley of the Anchorage Daily News, Cherie Shirey and Andrea Gusty of KTVA, Lori Tipton of KTUU, and, in a long recounting of his own, the Anchorage Daily News' Wesley Loy.


Would have been nice if Linkins, who I like, would have linked to or summarized these writers' findings. I'm willing to be convinced, but none of these are very convincing. Wesley Loy's "long recounting" of his own basically says, "I didn't think she looked pregnant at the time, and I wrote as much, but I apparently missed some clues." He also reports having seen her "covered" bump, which of course still rebuts nothing of the suggestion, however farfetched, that she wore a prosthetic.

He acknowledges this lapse, even, in his "long recounting":


Quote:

For an instant, I thought of asking her to let me see or feel her belly but chickened out (something I now regret, given how this thing has taken off so).


Why would he regret this except to the extent that he knows that his account is less than reliable?

Look, like I said, I'm willing to be convinced. Wholly willing. But the narrative that she offers for the pregnancy and birth either indicate a wholesale cavalier attitude regarding the child's well-being or a gross lie. I still believe that the likeliest possibility is that the gross lie was simply a self-aggrandizing exaggeration — that she was this tough Grizzly Mama and steadfast political animal who wouldn't let something like going into premature labor with a Downs kid at an old age stop her from both delivering a political speech and returning to Alaska. Such a narrative, remember this happened before she was even a national figure, had the dual effect of shoring up her credentials as a Political Mother and as a kind of Alaskan nationalist (remember that secession is a big deal in Alaska and she and her husband have always been cozy with secessionists). That's why her husband claimed that they came back while she was in labor specifically because they wanted him to be a True Alaskan: "You can't have a fish picker from Texas."

But this still supposes, as I do (but not with 100%) confidence that it's her kid. I still believe that's the simplest explanation: she lied about the conditions of the birth in order to for the kid to be a political prop from the first seconds of its life. There's a good chance that she started labor sometime after she says she did and that the original story was just a dramatic lie borne of politicized bluster.

Again, that's not a favorable narrative at all but it's the most favorable one of the three. So to recap, one of the following three scenarios is absolutely true:

1) Sarah Palin went into labor, in her mid-forties, with a kid with Down Syndrome, in Texas before she was to give a political speech. Instead of seeking immediate attention for her high-risk birth at one of the top-notch medical centers in Dallas, she proceeded to give the speech several hours later, then caught two flights (including a layover in Seattle, where there are also great medical facilities) that land her in Anchorage sometime around 20 hours after she first noticed signs of labor (and not even just early labor, but her water was broken, as someone who's attended two unassisted births, I know the difference). After arriving in Anchorage around midnight, after a long flight, she still surpassed the medical facilities in Anchorage that are equipped for a high-risk pregnancy, and drives about 45 minutes so that she can give birth in a small medical center in the middle of nowhere Alaska that is not equipped for high-risk pregnancies. She then gives birth at this facility approximately six hours later. Nobody that she encountered along the way — at the conference or on the planes — noticed that she was in labor. This is fortuitous since there's not an airline in the country that would have allowed a woman visibly in labor to board. She shows no outward signs of labor because she's a straight G and is unfazed. That her teenaged daughter, who is known to have been sexually active, despite the conservative's advocacy of abstinence, had been out of school for months with mono is purely coincidental. That the pregnancy was announced very late in its term, that those closest to her didn't notice she was pregnant at all, and that there are many pictures of her just prior to the pregnancies announcement (including a televised video her going running in a tight-fitting track suit) that give no indication of pregnancy, are coincidental. (She definitely knew the child would be diagnosed with Down Syndrome because, for a mother of her age, amniocentesis is pretty much mandatory as the risks of amnio are dwarfed by the risks of the pregnancy and birth. Still, the degree to which this accentuates the problems with the birth does not affect her odd decisions. This part is speculative, she might have avoided amnio for stupid, but common anti-choice reasons.) That the medical center doesn't post a birth announcement on their website is purely coincidental. That a doctor's report on the birth includes glaring hedges regarding the specifics of the birth is coincidental.

This is the story that Palin tells.

2) Sarah Palin went into labor, in her mid-forties, with a kid with Down Syndrome, sometime after she gave her speech, perhaps while she was already en route to Alaska. Her water wasn't broken, as she later claimed, but she did exhibit some signs of early labor. Instead of seeking immediate attention for her high-risk birth at one of the top-notch hospitals in Dallas or Seattle, she made her way to Alaska either for reasons of Alaskan nationalism, because she considered that it would otherwise shore up her image as being a sort of supermom who is immune to pain, or because she simply would prefer that the unwanted child with sever defects die. Once she arrives in Anchorage, she proceeds to drive to the ill-equipped regional medical center because labor actually isn't imminent and she trusts the doctor there (or because she wants the baby to die). She then gives birth at this facility approximately six hours later. That her teenaged daughter, who is known to have been sexually active, despite the conservative's advocacy of abstinence, had been out of school for months with mono is purely coincidental. That the pregnancy was announced very late in its term, that those closest to her didn't notice she was pregnant at all, and that there are many pictures of her just prior to the pregnancies announcement (including a televised video her going running in a tight-fitting track suit) that give no indication of pregnancy, are coincidental. That the medical center doesn't post a birth announcement on their website is purely coincidental. That a doctor's report on the birth includes glaring hedges regarding the specifics of the birth is coincidental.

This is bizarre but I think it's far likelier than the first option and somewhat more likely than the third.

3) Bristol Palin, unwed teenaged daughter of rising Republican party star, political supermom, and Governor of Alaska, tells her family she's pregnant sometime relatively late in the pregnancy. It's after the first trimester, so a quiet abortion, in addition to being morally wrong by her parents' view, would be difficult to obtain. The pregnancy itself would be a big blow to her mother's political image, which is based nearly 100% on right-wing identity politics. Inspired, perhaps, by a subplot in the television series Desperate Housewives, in which a right-wing mother fakes a pregnancy in order to hide her teenaged daughter's pregnancy and the shame it would invite, Sarah Palin does just that. She sends her daughter off somewhere, or merely keeps her confined at home away from school and claims that she has a really bad, months-long case of a mild, but highly infectious disease. The governor hastily announces that she's pregnant and then begins a multiple stage deception that involves first attempting to quickly gain weight (which is relatively hard as she's a natural athlete who runs for sport) and then wearing a graduated set of prostheses in order to pretend to be pregnant. She shows nobody her actual belly but is able to show a clothed "bump" to ward off suspicions (though suspicions remain, even of those who'd seen the bump). All goes relatively well, and the governor continues her political life unabated while the pregnant daughter (whose weight gain over the past few months was notable) is locked away. That is, until the daughter goes into early labor one morning on the even of an important national political speech and the governor is thousands of miles away. The governor sends her daughter to a small regional center and the exclusive care of a trusted small-town doctor while she catches the first available flight home after her speech. That nobody along the way notices that she's in labor is because she's not in labor. She passes by countless highly-equipped hospitals along the way because she's not in labor, or even pregnant. The baby is born at some point in time, maybe even fortuitously after she arrived, and is diagnosed quickly with Down Syndrome, which is a surprise since they didn't perform amniocentesis on a teenager — the decision to have the birth at a small regional center ill-equipped for high-risk births isn't particularly bad as there was no reason to think this would be a high-risk birth. The Down diagnosis is oddly fortuitous as people often, erroneously, believe that most Down babies are born to old mothers. Bristol quickly gets pregnant again, but this time, the pregnancy is also fortuitous as it wards off some suspicions about the previous birth and is, indeed, announced in the press by the now-VP candidate Palin as a direct response to allegations about the previous pregnancy (though, of course, forcing her daughter's pregnancy into the limelight of a presidential election is a weird way to disprove these rumors when the governor might have just as easily shown the press the child's birth certificate).


Like I said one of these things definitely happened. All are incredibly far-fetched so there's hardly an Occam's Razor solution. Still, if there is, it's the second. And there's no reason to be confident about that without serious investigation (one that the Anchorage Daily News itself attempted but was rebuffed).

Now, I don't know shit about the reporters cited, but pretty much all of the bloggers who are cited in Linkins article, including Linkins himself, are familiar to me. It should be noted that many of them were involved in the Journo-List scandal, which was hardly a big deal to me, except that it showed that political bloggers have, you know, politics and that sometimes their interests w/r/t strategy and picking topics has something to do with winning political points rather than being seeking out ostensible "truths" that are unconnected to our political processes. This, to me, is obvious enough and mostly unworthy of comment: it's a sort of bipartisan rendering of the arguments that Chomsky and Ed Herman advanced almost 30 years ago. And it's a sign of being, to some degree, human. But I mention this to say that their opposition, like many's opposition to this line of questioning, has to do with the perception that it's a political dead end, regardless of what comes out of the questions. To the degree that Obama Birthers are motivated by this country's history of naked racism, and especially the Republican party's courting of residual racists as part of a "Southern Strategy" for forty years, these writers as representatives of a sort of liberal consensus are wary of Trig "Birthers" and the degree to which it engages in a sort of identity politics that the Democratic party has largely shied away from. Sure, the Democratic party has an identity politics when it comes to minorities and gays, but it has been scared to engage Republicans on the ground of right-wing, conservative, white identity politics and this is the terrain on which these questions are engaged. Meanwhile there is the realistic fear that engaging in some iteration of the "Mommy Wars" at all would be a losing battle with regard to the Democratic party's base of middle-class white women, who often find such questions inappropriate, wholesale, as they are uniquely targeting a prominent woman on base biological grounds. Without Palin's full-scale cooperation, it's impossible to prove and the asking itself is a a losing political battle. So it's totally reasonable that the Ezra Kleins, Jon Chaits, and the Slate XX Factor bloggers of the world would want to nip this line of questioning in the bud, declaring it morally wrong on one hand and fringe political lunacy on the other. This has the added effect of positioning these bloggers, as they often are positioned, within the self-branded Reality Based Community that is largely politically materialist and exclusive to fringe elements.

That's my fucking essay on this and the response to this.
Post Tue Apr 26, 2011 8:14 am
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Self Conscious



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that is quite the essay, damn. this whole conspiracy is pointless and stupid. palin has proven to be a phony in other more important facets of her political life, there is no reason to make up phony conspiracies based in nonsense and hearsay.
Post Tue Apr 26, 2011 10:49 am
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icarus502
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Self Conscious wrote:
that is quite the essay, damn. this whole conspiracy is pointless and stupid. palin has proven to be a phony in other more important facets of her political life, there is no reason to make up phony conspiracies based in nonsense and hearsay.


That's my point. It's not so much a "conspiracy" alleged (except between a woman and her family) and it's not based on nonsense but on reason and a proper amount of skepticism regarding her own crazy narrative. But, like I said, the whole line of questioning is politically inappropriate (ergo "pointless and stupid") thus people tend to want to marginalize the questioners.

But, just asking, of my three scenarios — which are exhaustive, there are no other marginally plausible explanations —which do you believe is more likely?
Post Tue Apr 26, 2011 11:00 am
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icarus502
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What of it, Self Conscious? You were quick to debunk and suggest that anyone who questions is an idiot, I want an answer!

Anyhow, maybe this will all be resolved when the Levi Johnston tell-all comes out this Fall.
Post Wed Apr 27, 2011 9:24 am
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Self Conscious



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icarus502 wrote:
What of it, Self Conscious? You were quick to debunk and suggest that anyone who questions is an idiot, I want an answer!

Anyhow, maybe this will all be resolved when the Levi Johnston tell-all comes out this Fall.


I'm at class right now but I will adress it when I get done.
Post Wed Apr 27, 2011 10:22 am
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Self Conscious



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icarus502 wrote:
What of it, Self Conscious? You were quick to debunk and suggest that anyone who questions is an idiot, I want an answer!

Anyhow, maybe this will all be resolved when the Levi Johnston tell-all comes out this Fall.


with respect to the theory "that the birth of Trig, a baby with Down syndrome, played a key role in Palin being chosen for the GOP's 2008 ticket, because it solidified her pro-life credentials"


Quote:

The implication here, I guess, is that Palin calculated sometime in the winter of 2008 -- while John McCain, Mitt Romney and Mike Huckabee were still duking it out for the GOP presidential nomination -- that concocting an elaborate, daring and downright reckless plot to pass off someone else's child as her own would bolster her chances of landing on the ultimate GOP nominee's ticket. Even for those who have a low opinion of Palin, this should sound absurd on its face.

But putting that aside, it's simply not accurate to claim that the Trig story is what landed Palin on the ticket, or even on McCain's radar. What stood out about Palin to (some of) the McCain team were her gender and her supposed credentials as a reformer -- the woman who said "No!" to the Bridge to Nowhere (even if she really didn't) and who stood up to Big Oil on behalf of everyday Alaskans. It also helped that McCain needed a jolt, was prone to impulsive decision-making (remember when he suspended his campaign on a whim?), and had a dearth of options when it came to "bold" running-mate picks.


with respect to people saying she wasn't pregnant:


Quote:

There are numerous independent eyewitnesses who spent considerable time with Palin in early 2008 and who observed that she was pregnant. We spoke to several of them, and their accounts are detailed below. Their eyewitness accounts should carry more weight than the doubts of bloggers scrutinizing a few photos posted on the Web.



how about the claim that no one in the press investigated it:


Quote:

Steve Quinn, who is now a freelancer, was the Alaska-based Associated Press journalist who wrote the wire story reporting that Palin was pregnant in early March 2008. He told us that rumors were circulating that Palin was not truly pregnant even back then -- before she gave birth and well before she was tapped to be John McCain's running mate. So, like any good reporter, Quinn looked into it -- twice -- and came away with solid reasons to believe there was no hoax.

According to Quinn, in the days immediately after Palin announced her pregnancy that March, he was in the governor's office and asked her directly about the rumors. Palin smiled and, Quinn says, lifted an outer layer of clothing to show that she was indeed pregnant. "She was able to show a thin layer of clothing against her stomach that revealed an enlarged abdomen area," he says.

Quinn added that he heard from female legislators and friends of the governor that they suspected, based on physical changes, that Palin was pregnant well before she announced the news.

Several months later, after Palin had been tapped for the No. 2 slot on the GOP ticket, Quinn began looking into the rumors again. He called Palin's doctor, Cathy Baldwin-Johnson, who had personally induced Palin's labor in April. Baldwin-Johnson called him back several days after the Republican convention ended in early September. Quinn asked her directly if Trig was Sarah Palin's baby. "The doctor flat-out told me it was Palin's child," he recalled.

We also spoke to Erika Bolstad, a veteran McClatchy reporter who covers Washington for the Anchorage Daily News. In early 2008, Bolstad began working on a story about the vice-presidential buzz surrounding Palin. When Palin traveled to Washington for a meeting of the National Governors Association, held the weekend of Feb. 23-25, Bolstad caught up with Palin for an in-person interview. This was about a week before the pregnancy was announced, and about seven weeks before Palin gave birth to Trig. Bolstad told us that she distinctly remembers thinking that the governor looked pregnant.

"When I interviewed her and heard the news a few days later that she was pregnant, there was no doubt in my mind that it was true," she said. "I saw her. She looked pregnant."

At the time of the National Governors Association conference, Sam Bishop was a staffer in the Alaska governor's office in Washington. Bishop, who is now an editor at the Fairbanks News-Miner, spent a large chunk of the second day of the conference -- Feb. 24, 2008 -- accompanying Palin to interviews and meetings. When he read the announcement about a week later that Palin was pregnant, Bishop told us, "I just slapped my forehead, and went, 'Duh!'"

Added Bishop: "It was so clear to me that she had been pregnant. She was wearing large scarves, clothing that was not form-fitting. Her face was more filled out than normal. She was very much pregnant, and fairly far along, when I met her."

Others reporters who were covering Palin at the time said she was showing clear signs of pregnancy.

That includes Anchorage Daily News columnist Julia O'Malley, who wrote last week:

Even before the announcement, she seemed to be putting on weight. She wore baggy jackets and scarves. Before the announcement, she acted nervous when photographers tried to take her picture. Later on, her face filled out. Her fingers swelled. She had a noticeable belly.

Then there is journalist Cherie Shirey of KTVA in Anchorage, who told the Huffington Post in 2008:

We worked with Governer Palin many times in 2008. Our reporters worked her on location and in the studio and I worked with her myself. She was definitely pregnant. You could see it in her belly and her face.



but wait theres more:


Quote:

there is Frank Bailey, a disgruntled former Palin aide who has a book coming out about his experiences at Palin's side. In it, he reveals that "he visited Sarah Palin at the hospital just hours after Trig was born and spotted Bristol sitting in the waiting room," according to a description of his book by a Daily Beast reporter who obtained an early copy.

That's in line with what reporter Lori Tipton of Alaska television station KTUU has described about her interaction with Bristol at the hospital seven hours after Trig's birth:

And Bristol [Palin] was in there, and I said to Bristol, "We should get some footage of you and your brother and your grandparents." And she’s like, "No I really don’t like to be photographed." And I said, "Are you sure?" And she’s like, "Yeah, yeah, no." And she didn’t have any make-up on or anything, but she was dressed in typical teenage attire, a tight shirt, low-cut jeans, you know, and we had heard the rumors before the delivery of this baby also, that Bristol was pregnant, and so, when my photographer and I got to the hospital and we saw her, I thought, well, clearly there’s no way that that girl just delivered a baby seven hours ago.

Bristol Palin, of course, did have a baby, Tripp, who was born in December 2008, just eight months after Trig was born. Bailey and Tipton's accounts, along with the timeline, provide overwhelming evidence that one of the popular Trig Truther theories -- that Bristol is Trig's real mother -- is not true.


oh yea and the doctor:


Quote:

Meanwhile, Palin's doctor, Cathy Baldwin-Johnson, wrote a detailed medical report on Palin that was released right before the election in November 2008. In the report (.pdf) the doctor described the pregnancy in detail:

At the time of her most recent pregnancy, Governor Palin had no health risk factors other than her age. Routine prenatal testing easly in the second trimester showed evidence of Trisomy 21, which was confirmed by perinatology consultation and amniocentesis. She followed the normal and recommended schedule for prenatal care, including follow-up perinatology evaluations to ensure that there was no significant congenital heart disease or other condition of the baby that would preclude delivery at her home community hospital. This child, Trig, was born at 35 weeks in good health. He was able to go home at two days of age with his mother. He has some minor problems with jaundice that required phototherapy in the hospital and at home for several days.

Baldwin-Johnson is the same doctor who spoke with Quinn, the AP reporter, after the '08 GOP convention and she also gave an interview to the Anchorage Daily News in April 2008 describing the delivery of Trig (and noting that she had induced labor).


and there is that picture of her pregnant but she must have been wearing a fat suit right?


Quote:

So where does all of this leave us? There are two potential narratives. One lacks affirmative evidence. The other has loads of it.

You can believe that Palin was wearing a pregnancy suit and Hollywood-quality makeup for weeks, all before she had a national profile. You can believe that she fooled all of those journalists with her pregnancy costume, including the AP reporter who literally inspected Palin's belly in her office. You can believe that Palin, and her entire family, and her doctor, and her disgruntled former aide Frank Bailey, have been lying to the press in a tightly organized and mind-bogglingly elaborate conspiracy. You can believe that the medical workers who were involved in Trig's delivery were paid off or have simply kept inexplicably quiet about the hoax. You can believe that Bristol Palin gave birth to Trig and then had another child just eight months later.

Or you can believe that Trig is Sarah Palin's son.


most of this was taken from http://www.salon.com/news/politics/war_room/2011/04/22/sarah_palin_trig_conspiracy_theory/index.html which has links to those people's, who claim to have seen her pregnant, articles.
Post Wed Apr 27, 2011 5:22 pm
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icarus502
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Dude. You didn't address anything that I wrote whatsoever.
Post Wed Apr 27, 2011 5:37 pm
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icarus502 wrote:
Dude. You didn't address anything that I wrote whatsoever.


Well, based on what he wrote we can rule out his support for scenario 3. However, nothing in his refutation of the Bristol pregnancy refutes scenario 2 or explicitly proves scenario 1. At least we've eliminated one scenario, though.

FWIW, the only thing I've found particularly interesting about this whole thing is your analysis of it. And I like scenario 2. Something is rotten about Trig's birth and I think it has more to do with Alaska politics than national politics.
Post Wed Apr 27, 2011 5:55 pm
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It's looking more and more like she's heading towards irrelevance anyways.
Post Wed Apr 27, 2011 6:15 pm
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jakethesnake
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I thought she jumped the shark around the time she put out that... "book".
Post Wed Apr 27, 2011 7:56 pm
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Post Wed Apr 27, 2011 10:53 pm
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Self Conscious



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icarus502 wrote:
Dude. You didn't address anything that I wrote whatsoever.


i did answer, its none of the situations you described. Most of which had a obvious bias in how they were written (example: she made her way to Alaska either for reasons of Alaskan nationalism, because she considered that it would otherwise shore up her image as being a sort of supermom who is immune to pain, or because she simply would prefer that the unwanted child with sever defects die). i disproved the common misconceptions and conspiracies spread around the internet that you listed in the end of 1 and 2. No matter how many times you give them multiple eyewitness accounts of people who noticed and saw that she was pregnant, you get the
icarus502 wrote:
That the pregnancy was announced very late in its term, that those closest to her didn't notice she was pregnant at all, and that there are many pictures of her just prior to the pregnancies announcement (including a televised video her going running in a tight-fitting track suit) that give no indication of pregnancy, are coincidental
lines

i offered plenty of evidence to disprove the theories that Trig isn't Palin's kid. In order for that to work, there would have to be plenty of people helping cover and prop up the conspiracy, which seems to be a common theme in these crazy conspiracies.

i cant believe you got me in here defending Palin of all people, maybe you do win.
Post Wed Apr 27, 2011 11:54 pm
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icarus502
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Self Conscious wrote:
icarus502 wrote:
Dude. You didn't address anything that I wrote whatsoever.


i did answer, its none of the situations you described. Most of which had a obvious bias in how they were written (example: she made her way to Alaska either for reasons of Alaskan nationalism, because she considered that it would otherwise shore up her image as being a sort of supermom who is immune to pain, or because she simply would prefer that the unwanted child with sever defects die).


You didn't answer. It really, really seems that you actually have no idea what the content of the so-called "conspiracy theory" you're "debunking" even entails. Nor does it seem that you have any idea of what the Palin-given narrative for the birth even is. Why the fuck are you arguing this? I mean, if we call c&ping from articles that I've both read and addressed "arguing."

To wit:

How is what I posted, in the part that you quoted, "biased"? It's speculates on the reasons for which one would, while in a high-risk labor in a very high-risk pregnancy, one would put their unborn child in danger by hopping onto two transcontinental flights and thereby passing up several great hospitals in Dallas and Seattle, and flouting FAA policy and nearly every airline's policies (which generally state that a woman who boards an airplane in her third trimester should have a doctor's note and be fit-to-fly without the reasonable expectation of giving birth or they should be traveling in the company of a doctor) [it should be noted that Alaska Airlines doesn't restrict pregnant women at all and all airlines are on a sort of honor system regarding this, but they wouldn't board a woman who was visibly in labor]. I didn't make this up — if the reasons that I suggested seem biased or outlandish, it's because the situation itself is outlandish. For the record, one of my suggestions, that they did this out of reasons of Alaskan nationalism, is both the one that I think is most likely and the one that was proffered by Todd Palin himself: ""You can't have a fish picker from Texas." How is that biased? It acknowledges both what the (ostensible) father says AND the fact — which some "debunkers" think is super-relevant — that Palin was not a national figure at the time of the birth and was an isolated identity politician in a state in which secessionists are a sizable minority. Palin's personal ties to secessionists, including her husband, who was a member of the secessionist AIP from 1995-2002, are well documented. If it sounds outlandish that one would put their already retarded child at such additional risk because they wanted, as localized Alaskan political figures (as well as demagogues and nativists, in general), to say their kid is a Real Alaskan then:
1) You harbor a willful disregard for the degree to which nativism has been the primary cultural political ideology of the American right-wing since, well, before America was even a country, through the Yellow Peril, both iterations of the KKK, the Minutemen Project (no D. Boon), and on and on. And, more importantly…
2) You agree with those of us who you're criticizing in that you think something is fishy about the Palins' own account of the birth. After all, that's the reason they gave.

The other suggestions, that she wanted it to be an essential chapter of her personal identity politics or that she simply wanted to be rid of the child, might be less charitable (I guess) than suggesting that she and her husband are simply bizarre Alaskan nativists who care more about those beliefs than the welfare of their unborn, retarded child, or it might not be (depending on your perspective). I could sympathize with a mother who, burdened by a difficult job and a bunch of other kids, thought that a premature child with Down Syndrome would be too much to handle and did what they could to ensure a stillbirth. I'd think they were despicable, but I'd understand. Likewise, I have plenty of sympathy for a mother who chooses not to saddle their unwed teenaged daughter with retarded child or the stigma of teen pregnancy and chooses to raise the kid as her own. Such would even be admirable*. But I have no sympathy for nativism. And, again, the nativist explanation — as crazy as it is — is the one that the Palins have shared.

As for the rest of the things you've "disproved," you simply haven't. There are a couple of statements from people — one of whom is a freelancer who was in a romantic relationship with one Palin's closest aides, the other of whom wrote at the time that "she doesn't look pregnant" and was later charged with a post-birth "investigation" of the matter (why would that be necessary if he'd seen her pregnant belly already?) — and neither reports actually seeing her belly.

C'mon, Self Conscious. Tell it to me straight what, exactly, do you think happened?


* At least to the point that the teenaged mother begins a career in abstinence advocacy while the grand/mother uses the false story of the birth as a nugget of self-mythologizing along the path to building a national brand of bigotry-based identity politics


Last edited by icarus502 on Thu Apr 28, 2011 10:09 am; edited 1 time in total
Post Thu Apr 28, 2011 7:50 am
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Icarus is obviously a little biased but that doesn't invalidate the things he said. There were plenty of people who said they didn't know she was pregnant. She did announce her pregnancy fairly late. There is very little, if any, photographic evidence of the pregnancy. Obviously Icarus's biases lead him to accept evidence supporting these claims, and your biases lead you to believe opposing evidence. Much of it is anecdotal so there's probably little in the way of proving any of this.

But even if you refute those claims, it still doesn't refute that there is something extremely odd about someone who would give a political speech and then fly to Alaska from Texas just to give birth at some rinky-dink medical center when prenatal testing found that the baby had downs. In scenario 1 she is a psychopath who cares more about politics and nationalism than the welfare of her child or herself. In scenario 2 she's not so bad, she's still concerned greatly about politics and nationalism but only to the extent that she invents a narrative, distorting the situation to make herself seem like the psychopath in scenario 1.

It's amazing that she claims to be more American than you or I... but how American is it to do something so asinine as what she says she did? It's funny that the scenario that Icarus seems most willing to accept is the one that paints her as the least horrible person.
Post Thu Apr 28, 2011 8:11 am
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redball



Joined: 12 May 2006
Posts: 6871
Location: Northern New Jersey
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For the record, I started writing that post before Icarus's last post was there. I do work during the day, though...
Post Thu Apr 28, 2011 8:19 am
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