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O2K
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Joined: 14 Jul 2004
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Self Conscious wrote:
futuristxen wrote:
Hellen Earth wrote:
I think capitalism may have run it's course. As far as conspiracy goes, I mean, I agree that there aren't a small group of people planning the minutia. But isn't it possible there is a sort of 'shadow gov't' that may have motives that remain consistent despite who appears to be in power? I don't it's that far-fetched of an idea.


I doubt it's that organized. More a section of people who have a particular set of values that are passed down, combined with a particular level of access. I feel more like shit is on auto-pilot, and we just have to remember collectively that fact.




there is one problem (actually there are a million but) with this shadow govt conspiracy, that being that people automatically assume that everybody has similar values. this is just not true, people like that would have self-serving motives and such motives would conflict with the other self-serving parties. if you hang with your friends and are trying to decide where to go to dinner, you have differing opinions on what to do. Now imagine, these so called powerful organizations, trying to decide the fate of the world. its just utter non-sense to think that way.

futuristxen wrote:

Capitlism, Democracy, Socialism, Communism, fascism--all of these systems have now failed us. The new system won't be something we've done recently.



the claim that capitalism and democracy have failed is a huge stretch


Not that I agree with this idea but couldn't there just be a basic premise of maximizing profit.
Post Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:18 pm
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Confidential



Joined: 23 Jan 2004
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I don't think its such a stretch that capitalism and representative democracy has been unable to substantiate its claims. Though the ideological support for the neoliberal economic and political system has certainly succeeded in closing the imagining of any alternative. There is a absolutely a value system, taught passed to each new generation through the social system, that allows the system to reproduce itself.
Post Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:49 pm
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futuristxen



Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 19373
Location: Tighten Your Bible Belt
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Self Conscious wrote:
futuristxen wrote:
Hellen Earth wrote:
I think capitalism may have run it's course. As far as conspiracy goes, I mean, I agree that there aren't a small group of people planning the minutia. But isn't it possible there is a sort of 'shadow gov't' that may have motives that remain consistent despite who appears to be in power? I don't it's that far-fetched of an idea.


I doubt it's that organized. More a section of people who have a particular set of values that are passed down, combined with a particular level of access. I feel more like shit is on auto-pilot, and we just have to remember collectively that fact.




there is one problem (actually there are a million but) with this shadow govt conspiracy, that being that people automatically assume that everybody has similar values. this is just not true, people like that would have self-serving motives and such motives would conflict with the other self-serving parties. if you hang with your friends and are trying to decide where to go to dinner, you have differing opinions on what to do. Now imagine, these so called powerful organizations, trying to decide the fate of the world. its just utter non-sense to think that way.




Right which is why I believe more in systemic word virusy conspiracies.


Quote:


futuristxen wrote:

Capitlism, Democracy, Socialism, Communism, fascism--all of these systems have now failed us. The new system won't be something we've done recently.



the claim that capitalism and democracy have failed is a huge stretch


I suppose it would depend on what you think the aim of these systems actually is. Representative democracy is supposed to be about checks and balances--the people having a voice--but we have no voice in a two party system where both sides are beholden to the exact same corporate interests through all levels of government. Capitalism has changed from making the best products and people supporting them, to making the cheapest most exploitative products that get by on mind fuck marketing, and government oversight--same government that's been bought out mind you.

But if you believe that these systems like all others so far have been about finding the least painful way of exploiting the peasants for labor and power--then I suppose capitalism and representative democracy have worked wonderful.

We still do not have a system that empowers people to make decisions that benefit their lives overall. We still don't have a system that checks the exploitation of the powerless by the powerful.

If we live for another 500 years as a species, our current systems will look quite crude by future measures. It's insane to think that we have somehow found the best way to do this thing.
Post Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:54 pm
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futuristxen



Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 19373
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Confidential wrote:
I don't think its such a stretch that capitalism and representative democracy has been unable to substantiate its claims. Though the ideological support for the neoliberal economic and political system has certainly succeeded in closing the imagining of any alternative. There is a absolutely a value system, taught passed to each new generation through the social system, that allows the system to reproduce itself.


Yep pretty much. We've managed to turn both systems into a religion through our collective dumbing down.
Post Tue Apr 05, 2011 1:56 pm
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Self Conscious



Joined: 01 Apr 2009
Posts: 322
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futuristxen wrote:
Self Conscious wrote:
futuristxen wrote:
Hellen Earth wrote:
I think capitalism may have run it's course. As far as conspiracy goes, I mean, I agree that there aren't a small group of people planning the minutia. But isn't it possible there is a sort of 'shadow gov't' that may have motives that remain consistent despite who appears to be in power? I don't it's that far-fetched of an idea.


I doubt it's that organized. More a section of people who have a particular set of values that are passed down, combined with a particular level of access. I feel more like shit is on auto-pilot, and we just have to remember collectively that fact.




there is one problem (actually there are a million but) with this shadow govt conspiracy, that being that people automatically assume that everybody has similar values. this is just not true, people like that would have self-serving motives and such motives would conflict with the other self-serving parties. if you hang with your friends and are trying to decide where to go to dinner, you have differing opinions on what to do. Now imagine, these so called powerful organizations, trying to decide the fate of the world. its just utter non-sense to think that way.




Right which is why I believe more in systemic word virusy conspiracies.


Quote:


futuristxen wrote:

Capitlism, Democracy, Socialism, Communism, fascism--all of these systems have now failed us. The new system won't be something we've done recently.



the claim that capitalism and democracy have failed is a huge stretch


I suppose it would depend on what you think the aim of these systems actually is. Representative democracy is supposed to be about checks and balances--the people having a voice--but we have no voice in a two party system where both sides are beholden to the exact same corporate interests through all levels of government. Capitalism has changed from making the best products and people supporting them, to making the cheapest most exploitative products that get by on mind fuck marketing, and government oversight--same government that's been bought out mind you.

But if you believe that these systems like all others so far have been about finding the least painful way of exploiting the peasants for labor and power--then I suppose capitalism and representative democracy have worked wonderful.

We still do not have a system that empowers people to make decisions that benefit their lives overall. We still don't have a system that checks the exploitation of the powerless by the powerful.

If we live for another 500 years as a species, our current systems will look quite crude by future measures. It's insane to think that we have somehow found the best way to do this thing.


but then you are describing our premise of those systems, not the systems themselves or the institutions of those systems. i tend to agree with everything you said here except for the fact that they have both failed. democracy and capitalism at their core clash because what is best for the market isn't always best for the people. that system you talk about is also impossible to achieve, not that we shouldn't strive for it.
Post Tue Apr 05, 2011 2:11 pm
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Dan Shay



Joined: 30 Aug 2003
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Dan Shay wrote:
The rebellion would've been stronger but they've lost too many fighting against the US in Iraq and Afghanistan this decade.
Post Tue Apr 05, 2011 11:15 pm
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crash



Joined: 07 Aug 2003
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Location: the chocolate city with a marshmallow center and a graham cracker crust of corruption
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Dan Shay wrote:
Dan Shay wrote:
The rebellion would've been stronger but they've lost too many fighting against the US in Iraq and Afghanistan this decade.


That was inaccurate the first time you posted it.

The Sinjar Records documented 112 Libyans in Iraq to fighting the US prior to 2008. Most of these were untrained youth who ended up going on suicide missions.

In Afghanistan, the well trained and organized LFIG didn't share Osama's particular vision of global jihad and mostly fled ahead of the US invasion.
Post Wed Apr 06, 2011 8:30 am
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Alan Hague



Joined: 05 Sep 2008
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futur - Right on!

I'm pretty sure this is what we mean when we're talking about the failures of representative democracy, but I feel the need to reiterate: Democracy itself is what's necessary, but it's blocked/prevented from functioning by powerful moneyed interests.

Over the past few years as I've read more and more about economics, I've come to the conclusion that the main obstacle to democracy is capitalism. I think this is being proved more and more as time goes on.

Relevant to this is a great article published very recently by Joseph Stiglitz on wealth inequality and the increasing ossification of the elite 1% who pretty much run society:

http://www.vanityfair.com/society/features/2011/05/top-one-percent-201105

I've never been more convinced that unless wealth ownership and capitalism are challenged, then things will not change. And this challenge will require active work & organizing on the part of all concerned people.

Maybe this should be an entire discussion unto itself? I'm definitely down for that, but then again I'm the kind of nerd who never tires of talking politics. : )
Post Thu Apr 07, 2011 4:20 pm
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Dan Shay



Joined: 30 Aug 2003
Posts: 11245
Location: MN
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crash wrote:
Dan Shay wrote:
Dan Shay wrote:
The rebellion would've been stronger but they've lost too many fighting against the US in Iraq and Afghanistan this decade.


That was inaccurate the first time you posted it.

The Sinjar Records documented 112 Libyans in Iraq to fighting the US prior to 2008. Most of these were untrained youth who ended up going on suicide missions.

In Afghanistan, the well trained and organized LFIG didn't share Osama's particular vision of global jihad and mostly fled ahead of the US invasion.


I just googled Sinjar Records and you've got to be loony toons to think this is a good source of information, and even then, it states 18% of insurgents in Iraq are Libyan.
Post Thu Apr 07, 2011 6:06 pm
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Self Conscious



Joined: 01 Apr 2009
Posts: 322
Location: Sleeping in a box car dreaming of lost starts
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Alan Hague wrote:
futur - Right on!

I'm pretty sure this is what we mean when we're talking about the failures of representative democracy, but I feel the need to reiterate: Democracy itself is what's necessary, but it's blocked/prevented from functioning by powerful moneyed interests.

Over the past few years as I've read more and more about economics, I've come to the conclusion that the main obstacle to democracy is capitalism. I think this is being proved more and more as time goes on.

Relevant to this is a great article published very recently by Joseph Stiglitz on wealth inequality and the increasing ossification of the elite 1% who pretty much run society:

http://www.vanityfair.com/society/features/2011/05/top-one-percent-201105

I've never been more convinced that unless wealth ownership and capitalism are challenged, then things will not change. And this challenge will require active work & organizing on the part of all concerned people.

Maybe this should be an entire discussion unto itself? I'm definitely down for that, but then again I'm the kind of nerd who never tires of talking politics. : )


democracy and capitalism clash but the problem you then have is that a if the people get to choose then they will most likely choose capitalism, especially in such a liberal society as the US. capitalism doesn't like democracy but democracy likes capitalism. I'm not so sure that capitalism is the problem as much as the institutionalization of capitalism is. The problem is that the people who make the decisions benefit from them so its unlikely that they will change them, its much like any institution, it spits out those who try to change them because they are a threat.
Post Thu Apr 07, 2011 8:04 pm
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crash



Joined: 07 Aug 2003
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Dan Shay wrote:
crash wrote:
Dan Shay wrote:
Dan Shay wrote:
The rebellion would've been stronger but they've lost too many fighting against the US in Iraq and Afghanistan this decade.


That was inaccurate the first time you posted it.

The Sinjar Records documented 112 Libyans in Iraq to fighting the US prior to 2008. Most of these were untrained youth who ended up going on suicide missions.

In Afghanistan, the well trained and organized LFIG didn't share Osama's particular vision of global jihad and mostly fled ahead of the US invasion.


I just googled Sinjar Records and you've got to be loony toons to think this is a good source of information, and even then, it states 18% of insurgents in Iraq are Libyan.

yes. 18.8% = 112 insurgents.. what's your rock solid source of information that shows that so many potential rebels were killed in iraq?
Post Fri Apr 08, 2011 8:45 am
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firefly



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I think the only way to an open and free society is by direct participation of the people. No matter which system of government we have, there will always be people in power who will be corrupt as long as the masses are passive. Voting once every 4 years for one person to make all of our decisions for us isn't democracy. Especially when there is a criminally low amount of options to vote on.

I've been researching participatory governments - particulary participatory budgeting - and it finally clicked for me. People need to be more involved, it's as simple as that. That doesn't mean that everyone has to know everything about how to run a city/town/etc. But there has to be more involvement then what there is now. If a corporation moves in to your town and wants to build a mine, open a wal mart, etc, the people of that town should have the right to say fuck off.

I also think that there needs to be a lot more regulating of corporations. Huge multi-million dollar companies shouldn't be allowed to set up shop anywhere they please. I mean, there has to be a limit to the amount of wealth a person is allowed to have or else we create a monster that can never be stopped. Why do we feel it is a sign of freedom that people should be allowed to be as rich and have as many houses as they wish? How do most people get so rich?
Post Fri Apr 08, 2011 9:48 am
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Self Conscious



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firefly wrote:
I think the only way to an open and free society is by direct participation of the people.


only problem is how do you have direct participation in country as large as the US. its just not possible and a lot of people don't vote now so even if it were that way then it would work just like now. the reason we have representatives are most people have other, sometimes more important in their mind, things to do in their lives. Not everybody can be an expert on everything, not to say that the people we choose to represent us are experts, most are not but that's the problem, not he system of representative democracy.
Post Fri Apr 08, 2011 12:36 pm
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Alan Hague



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Self Conscious wrote:
democracy and capitalism clash but the problem you then have is that a if the people get to choose then they will most likely choose capitalism, especially in such a liberal society as the US. capitalism doesn't like democracy but democracy likes capitalism. I'm not so sure that capitalism is the problem as much as the institutionalization of capitalism is. The problem is that the people who make the decisions benefit from them so its unlikely that they will change them, its much like any institution, it spits out those who try to change them because they are a threat.



If a vote were held right now, then yes, the majority of people would probably choose capitalism, but how many people are really aware of alternatives, especially a socialist alternative? I think if there were a more prevalent understanding of socialism in a genuine sense (i.e., democracy in the workplace, economic democracy, etc.) as opposed to the many common misconceptions that abound (i.e., the Soviet Union, Obama!, etc.), then it'd be a different story.

Which is where I see my role as an activist/organizer - discussing/debating these issues with friends, coworkers, SFR forum peeps, etc. : )

Even with that being the case, as the fallout from this recession is still being felt by millions throughout the country (let alone around the world), many people are beginning to question capitalism, especially young people. In the wake of the astoundingly-unpopular bank bailout program, the handful of major banks that survived emerged even bigger than before! They didn't uphold any of their basic promises - using bailout money to prevent home foreclosures, to loan to small businesses, etc. And executive compensation has increased while, for many people, their standard of living has decreased due to austerity programs, attacks on labor, and increased defense spending.

As the American family's basic material standard of living declines, I think we'll only see an increased questioning of capitalism.

Also, to address your point about the institutionalization of capitalism being the problem - I definitely agree. But you wouldn't have that institutionalization without capitalism in the first place!
Post Fri Apr 08, 2011 1:09 pm
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Hellen Earth
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Joined: 09 Jan 2003
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People aren't aware of the truth of things sometimes because of the creative use of statistics for spin purposes.
Post Fri Apr 08, 2011 9:39 pm
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