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Flawed Logic



Joined: 16 Nov 2010
Posts: 349
Location: Austin, TX - Albuquerque, NM - Kalamazoo, MI - Minneapolis-St. Paul, MN
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The tide goes in the tide goes out... BOOM!!!!



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In your face!!!!!
Post Sat Feb 05, 2011 10:07 am
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outpatient



Joined: 07 Jul 2005
Posts: 475
Location: haggis and scotch eggs
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futuristxen wrote:
At the end of the day all anyone has is what they hold as their own personal truths. It's not your job to disrespect those truths. Rather it's better for you to try and understand those truths and why they are there--and in doing so become closer to your community, and changing it by your closeness.


I don't agree with this at all. there's a realm of absolute truth that exists independently of subjective experience. It's filtered through our often faulty brain equipment, but it's there, and it lets us predict the future more accurately than fairytales and mythology. cars and computers and medicine work because the mechanics of the universe don't change at the whims of our minds. things happen or they don't. we get tricked by our senses and biases but it doesn't change what is.

I'm cool with people believing what they want, but when they try telling me 2+2 isn't 4, they don't deserve my respect. they'll fuck up the world for everybody.
Post Sat Feb 05, 2011 12:29 pm
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Bicycle



Joined: 17 Nov 2008
Posts: 413
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2+2 isn't 4

Math changes. the discovery of zero was a pretty big deal. It probably fucked up the world for everybody. The world gets fucked up sometimes though. Like when computers were invented.
Post Sat Feb 05, 2011 12:47 pm
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MCGF



Joined: 22 Feb 2010
Posts: 367
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outpatient wrote:
futuristxen wrote:
At the end of the day all anyone has is what they hold as their own personal truths. It's not your job to disrespect those truths. Rather it's better for you to try and understand those truths and why they are there--and in doing so become closer to your community, and changing it by your closeness.


I don't agree with this at all. there's a realm of absolute truth that exists independently of subjective experience. It's filtered through our often faulty brain equipment, but it's there, and it lets us predict the future more accurately than fairytales and mythology. cars and computers and medicine work because the mechanics of the universe don't change at the whims of our minds. things happen or they don't. we get tricked by our senses and biases but it doesn't change what is.

I'm cool with people believing what they want, but when they try telling me 2+2 isn't 4, they don't deserve my respect. they'll fuck up the world for everybody.


its not about that.

of course bill o'reilly is being really fucking stupid by trying to prove the existence of a creator with kindergarten logic. I agree, there are plenty of scientific truths that are more or less absolute. Questioning them with religion is pure stupidity.

But when it comes to the big questions such as whether there is a god or not, no one has any evidence either way. Condemning christians as zombies who turn to guidance in "clowns" and "snake oil salesmen" is just as idiotic and just as baseless in fact as o'reilly's assertions.

live and let live. its weird how little tolerance this board has for certain groups of people.
Post Sat Feb 05, 2011 3:15 pm
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Flossin



Joined: 28 Jul 2009
Posts: 585
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Whatever happened with all those mormons that Sage brought here like a month or two ago??
Post Sat Feb 05, 2011 3:22 pm
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pedavis



Joined: 03 May 2007
Posts: 1425
Location: Illinois, US
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they were eaten at the annual SFR cannibal bbq.
Post Sat Feb 05, 2011 4:44 pm
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Self Conscious



Joined: 01 Apr 2009
Posts: 322
Location: Sleeping in a box car dreaming of lost starts
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MCGF wrote:
outpatient wrote:
futuristxen wrote:
At the end of the day all anyone has is what they hold as their own personal truths. It's not your job to disrespect those truths. Rather it's better for you to try and understand those truths and why they are there--and in doing so become closer to your community, and changing it by your closeness.


I don't agree with this at all. there's a realm of absolute truth that exists independently of subjective experience. It's filtered through our often faulty brain equipment, but it's there, and it lets us predict the future more accurately than fairytales and mythology. cars and computers and medicine work because the mechanics of the universe don't change at the whims of our minds. things happen or they don't. we get tricked by our senses and biases but it doesn't change what is.

I'm cool with people believing what they want, but when they try telling me 2+2 isn't 4, they don't deserve my respect. they'll fuck up the world for everybody.


its not about that.

of course bill o'reilly is being really fucking stupid by trying to prove the existence of a creator with kindergarten logic. I agree, there are plenty of scientific truths that are more or less absolute. Questioning them with religion is pure stupidity.

But when it comes to the big questions such as whether there is a god or not, no one has any evidence either way. .


thought history, people have always invoked god to explain where their knowledge is limited (things they can not explain.) As history went further on, these things which were previously unexplainable, became explainable with the advancement of science, math, etc. God was no longer needed to explain what they could not. This is the same thing that is going on with the extensive of the universe or its creation, eventually we will learn how these things happened and god will no longer need to be invoked. There is a lot of evidence that would lead to the conclusion that a god does not exist. The evidence for why a god would exist is pointing to holes (or things which have not been explained but will eventually be) in the other theory. Science is something that welcomes controversy, if anybody discovered evidence of the existence of god, they would be welcomed with open arms not blackballed because they think differently. So its just not true to say that there is no evidence either way.

Their is nothing wrong with believing in the virtues or teachings of a god,no matter what religion. It is when people ignore scientific fact that we begin to see trouble because then we are basing policy on what we think and not what is the truth. If people believed that physics worked a certain way and that they could build a house on the side of a cliff with no support. They would build the house and it would collapse. It does not matter that they believed it would work, it was never going to work because there is a absolute truth to how certain things work. Most of these truths work in contrary to the belief in an existence of a god.
Post Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:49 pm
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breakreep
homophobic yet curious


Joined: 27 Sep 2004
Posts: 6627
Location: Fifth Jerusalem
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Yeah uh futurist I wasn't so much giving a historical dissertation as pointing out the absurdity of getting mad when your absurd religion isn't taken at face value by someone else. Snakeoil salesmen didn't exist yet either so far as we know, but you forgot to point that out!

Anyway the main thrust of your argument is exactly why I was so aggressive in that post. Trying to understand why someone turns to god for comfort is exactly as life-enriching and worthwhile as trying to understand why someone turns to a clown for comfort. Unless you're a paid or armchair psychologist or sociologist, that understanding is neither.

Wow another person's magical relationship with god it's so inspiring with all of its magnificent intricacies and subtle emotional derivatives yada. Go worship a fucking teletubby. Historical aside: Teletubbies are failed Power Rangers. Do you know why that absurd explanation doesn't matter? Because teletubbies don't matter. Neither do gods and neither do the utterly intangible relationships with them that you think are so important to understand.

It's a tired fucking circle. And I don't mean just the fact that I already know you'll defend the right to be fucking weird and pointless to the death and you know I'm an asshole. I mean the "oh look Katherine, I've discovered the real truth and wonder behind humanity's relationship with the real god".

Like, would you take me seriously if I came on here talking about how important Isaac Clarke is because he suffered for me at the hands of the necromorphs and in fact died several times for me over the course of my playthrough?

It's bullshit. Stop pretending people's relationships with mental shadows are important in any way except as a curiosity for those with a certain interest set. I'll treat you like a special snowflake for your visions of Jesus when you use him as an excuse to bomb something. Until then, those visions are inconsequential to anyone who doesn't read the same book.
Post Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:31 pm
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breakreep
homophobic yet curious


Joined: 27 Sep 2004
Posts: 6627
Location: Fifth Jerusalem
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And to clarify, none of this is in response to the initial intent of the thread (which I was vaguely interested to read at first), or even to being a Christian in general. It's in response to headache's or whoever's STUNNED and AFFRONTED response to the total lack of respect for Jesus in this thread and the other one in which the naked Jesii were having sex.

Your religion sucks, you bring it up aggressively in a context which is clearly not going to care, I make fun of you for bringing it up. I've been doing this for a while. You're usually the one I end up arguing with. None of this is at all surprising.

Edit: I also think a lot of pointless stuff is fascinating. But something as cliched and mindless as a relationship with Jesus just isn't. Try flipping it around, why don't you try to understand and thereby affect my community by making some effort to understand why science and its measurable humanistic advances are great while religion is the cancerous balls? It would bore you out of your mind right?
Post Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:42 pm
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Bicycle



Joined: 17 Nov 2008
Posts: 413
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what are sciences measurable humanistic advances? Who benefits from science? who decides whether or not these advances are good?

Science is a tool
religion is a tool
Tools are useless unless someone uses them
Post Sat Feb 05, 2011 7:45 pm
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mancabbage



Joined: 29 Jun 2005
Posts: 9263
Location: london
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you cant argue about religion with religious people because religion gives them a shield that makes them immune to logic and evidence.. its pointless, so i just punch them in the face and set their families on fire instead. Never the pets though, i save them
Post Sat Feb 05, 2011 7:56 pm
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futuristxen



Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 19376
Location: Tighten Your Bible Belt
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breakreep wrote:


Edit: I also think a lot of pointless stuff is fascinating. But something as cliched and mindless as a relationship with Jesus just isn't. Try flipping it around, why don't you try to understand and thereby affect my community by making some effort to understand why science and its measurable humanistic advances are great while religion is the cancerous balls? It would bore you out of your mind right?


I dunno, my life is pretty much a testament to how great I think science is. Which is maybe our one great misunderstanding. I love technology, tools, and the future.
Post Sat Feb 05, 2011 8:08 pm
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breakreep
homophobic yet curious


Joined: 27 Sep 2004
Posts: 6627
Location: Fifth Jerusalem
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Bicycle wrote:
what are sciences measurable humanistic advances? Who benefits from science? who decides whether or not these advances are good?



Gahr this is bullshit! You're propping up one foot on a rock and one on a soggy box and saying they're identical! If you don't consider longer and more comfortable life spans (just off the top of my head) to be "humanistic advances" then you literally do not understand what "humanistic" means! And YOU benefit from it! You're using the internet RIGHT NOW!

Futurist, you know I like you either way. Plus I know you're all about the twitter.

Flarb. I just got into an argument with my girlfriend about this because we watched a video with Richard Dawkins and Deepak Chokra. Now we're going out to eat. Live and learn. Don't watch that video with her anymore.
Post Sat Feb 05, 2011 8:58 pm
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Confidential



Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 2040
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I spent the days doing rituals. Was a good day.
Post Sat Feb 05, 2011 9:47 pm
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outpatient



Joined: 07 Jul 2005
Posts: 475
Location: haggis and scotch eggs
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MCGF wrote:
But when it comes to the big questions such as whether there is a god or not, no one has any evidence either way. Condemning christians as zombies who turn to guidance in "clowns" and "snake oil salesmen" is just as idiotic and just as baseless in fact as o'reilly's assertions.


yes, no one has any evidence. in other words, religious beliefs lack substance. this is why they don't deserve respect. when it comes to people who claim to know what god(s) want us to do, they deserve hostility.

you ever play telephone in school? the modern translations of thousand year old holy books are the equivalent of the last kid to get the message. screw that kid, he doesn't know what he's talking about.

to me, a game of telephone is trivially unimportant, and I tend not to think highly of people who say otherwise.

it's true that the only logical thing for us to say is "I don't know", but if I was a gambling man, I'd wager eternal hellfire that a gaggle of confused middle eastern goat herders made this shit up. "I don't know" doesn't mean someone's claims are equally likely to be true as they are false. strident dickhead atheists and turdy sanctimonious christians aren't equally credible, even though they might be equally irritating.

for example, I don't put good odds on the existence of leprechauns. those leprechaun believers might be right, but they're betting against the dealer, you know? I keep my money and go spend it on things I think are good and worthwhile. That was a convoluted metaphor, but you get the idea.

anyway, the occultist pagan weirdos and alan moore types are mostly just guilty of being a bit mad. christians are that and unimaginative. a mortal sin, I'd say.
Post Sun Feb 06, 2011 7:51 am
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