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Lest we forget ...war is a racket
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Strange Famous Forum > Social stuff. Political stuff. KNOWMORE

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See Arrrgh



Joined: 08 Feb 2009
Posts: 251
Location: New England
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firefly wrote:
See Arrrgh wrote:
Veterans' Day is about being thankful that there are people who are willing to die for their country.


What does that even mean? Die for my country? Give me a real answer of what that actually means. Seriously. That just sounds like propaganda that you hear everyday on television

The whole point of that quote in my post is that the only people who should be thanking the veterans are the war profiteers. I'm not trying to rub it in the faces of the veterans that they were wrong, I'm sorry that some people see it that way. It's about trying to show people that we should stop getting into wars. That while we should remember the sacrifice that many people have made we shouldn't get romanticized about WHY they were doing it. It wasn't about freedom then just as much as it isn't about freedom now.

I'm trying to remove the smoke and mirrors.


"It wasn't about freedom then just as much as it isn't about freedom now."

It seems, like Raoul, your scope is confined to modern wars. I mean... What are you talking about? You mention me and propaganda when I speak literally about people who join up knowing that they could quite possibly die while serving. Then, you talk about removing the smoke and mirrors, like people aren't already aware of the fact (at least the people around here) that wars make a lot of rich people more money.

On a board like this, assuming people are romanticizing war and veterans is kind of odd. The fact that so many people have made so many sacrifices for their own reasons (specifically veterans, who have a higher likelihood of dying far away from their families and friends) is why I challenged Raoul's generalization, and is why I originally commented on your post.
Post Fri Nov 12, 2010 1:28 am
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Z-0



Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 700
Location: Sydney
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firefly wrote:
It wasn't about freedom then just as much as it isn't about freedom now.


its easy to project present standards and knowledge onto those in the past. tomorrow we'll both be the ignorant folk judged by that days standards.

sometimes folk here act as though they're at "the end of knowing".


Last edited by Z-0 on Fri Nov 12, 2010 1:33 am; edited 1 time in total
Post Fri Nov 12, 2010 1:29 am
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firefly



Joined: 27 Sep 2002
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Location: Montreal
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See Arrrgh wrote:
Then, you talk about removing the smoke and mirrors, like people aren't already aware of the fact.


Apparently you don't if you're using language like "fight for our country".
Post Fri Nov 12, 2010 1:32 am
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See Arrrgh



Joined: 08 Feb 2009
Posts: 251
Location: New England
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Hold on. Let me try to re-center my point. I'll edit this post, so don't respond yet.


Here's how I've seen this conversation:

- Firefly makes a post about war being a racket on a day set aside to honor veterans, not honor politicians
- I comment about how it was tasteless
- Raoul calls people fakes or something
- IAmNiki comments on what I would have commented on
- Raoul concedes that those drafted are an exception, and therefore aren't dummies (but they're veterans, and the topic was about Veterans' Day)
- Quite a few posts happen about generalizations, why people don't have to ever face the people they make broad generalizations about, and how not "saying it to their face" doesn't make them wrong
- And here we are

Raoul. Do I think there are plenty of people that serve in the military for dumb (in my opinion) reasons? Absolutely. Am I going to generalize this group as representing the majority of ALL veterans that have ever served? No. That's what my point was, beyond the quick and easy "say it to their face" nonsense. The "say it to their face" bit was because veterans would more than likely have something to say about such generalizations, and that it makes your point look weak if you're not willing to be challenged directly for a generalization you've made about a group of people who probably have a strong opinion to the contrary. Does this mean I think all generalizations are stereotypes, or that all stereotypes are bad? No. This one, and others about groups of people, I consider to be bad, especially when it seems like you haven't spent a lot of time around the people you're generalizing.

I read your last post. If your first ones had been this direct, we'd not have gotten past page 3 or 4. Outside of the knee-jerk reaction to trying to point out the issue of generalizing a group, I agree with everything you just said. Even my male way of dissenting, and the fact I probably misinterpret/flat out miss a lot of vague things. I don't do well in vague territories. I do much better in direct discussion. Also, I've been under the assumption that you're against thanking veterans for the fact they've done (distant past and present included) what I'm unwilling to do. In the end, it seems like I've missed your point and we've been talking on a tangent while agreeing about a lot of points you just laid out. Or something.


Last edited by See Arrrgh on Fri Nov 12, 2010 2:07 am; edited 1 time in total
Post Fri Nov 12, 2010 1:32 am
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Raoul DeGroot



Joined: 30 Apr 2009
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Location: Son Quest
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See Arrrgh wrote:
Raoul DeGroot wrote:
Here's the thing, I've clarified that there is no generalization that is without exception, but guy who says whiny shit to people all sideways has not come with any evidence to the contrary other than to say "generalizations are bad! Tut tut."

Generalizations are what we exist in. That is incontrovertible.
At what level of generalization does it become kosher for this guy Seeargh to allow people to make an observation about the world? It'd be good to know.
I know white people have fucked it up so that generalization automatically means stereotype and nice guilty white people have deep seated anxiety about it. That's okay.


I wasn't trying to get into the argument, but rather responding to something else.

I've yet to say that "[all] generalizations are bad," directly or indirectly. Specifically, I've made my points on that subject. You can generalize all you want, as often as you want, about anything you want. That's your right. However, you made a SPECIFIC generalization about a SPECIFIC group of people. That's why I made a comment. It seems like your target is directed toward modern war and the veterans that served (minus those drafted, which makes up a large group of veterans I would thank on Veterans' Day). It also fails to address historical wars (ie: WWII) that have veterans I'm very thankful for. The men and women who have the courage to put their lives on the line for what they believe in are people I'd rather not see generalized as ignorant.

People who don't fit nicely into your generalization:
Those drafted to Vietnam
Those who enlisted and fought in WWII (possibly WWI)

You already said that drafted veterans are an exception. They were forced into it. I'm thankful that they had the courage to serve. Though newer veterans are not forced directly through a draft, there are plenty of circumstances that "force" people into the military. Are these people an exception too? Your vagueness throughout the whole thread has made it hard to really get into a direct conversation. Really, you just seem like you want to be perceived as the witty poster, but you don't really offer up shit in way of defending your opinions.


I already mentioned the part about circumstance essentially drafting people. I've tried to distinguish motives from ends. I also mentioned that not every violent act is inappropriate.

I can blame the Tylenol or I can generalize that you seem to frequently misinterpret or flat out miss a lot of things.
-Which might go some way to explaining why you seem to get into so many excruciatingly long arguments on here. Although most of those are with JaredPaul who's not the easiest person to come to common ground with. I give u that.



You have a very male way of arguing. And so do I, but I kinda mean it as a joke when I do it. Don't be like a bad comedy routine, sir.

I should add in case it's not clear
-I'm glad veterans day exists. We need it and more.
-I'm not glad of the circumstances that let it exist.
-I don't think we need to cloud our understanding of how it functions in order to agree with its primary purpose.
-I don't think being ready to die for something is great in and of itself. There's lots of people who can't wait to die by some means or other..


Last edited by Raoul DeGroot on Fri Nov 12, 2010 1:48 am; edited 3 times in total
Post Fri Nov 12, 2010 1:36 am
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firefly



Joined: 27 Sep 2002
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Z-0 wrote:
firefly wrote:
It wasn't about freedom then just as much as it isn't about freedom now.


its easy to project present standards and knowledge onto those in the past. tomorrow we'll both be the ignorant folk judged by that days standards.


By your logic people shouldn't educate people of past mistakes because they are probably wrong about things in the present.
Post Fri Nov 12, 2010 1:37 am
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Z-0



Joined: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 700
Location: Sydney
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firefly wrote:
Z-0 wrote:
firefly wrote:
It wasn't about freedom then just as much as it isn't about freedom now.


its easy to project present standards and knowledge onto those in the past. tomorrow we'll both be the ignorant folk judged by that days standards.


By your logic people shouldn't educate people of past mistakes because they are probably wrong about things in the present.


um...no. that's not was i was saying at all. given the context of this thread...that was way off.
Post Fri Nov 12, 2010 1:40 am
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firefly



Joined: 27 Sep 2002
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So what's your point then?
Post Fri Nov 12, 2010 9:54 am
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Flossin



Joined: 28 Jul 2009
Posts: 576
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I'm from Poland. Pretty much all wars here since the 10th century or so have been about independence (reclaiming it, defending it etc), survival or generally not getting fucked in the ass by our neighbors from both sides (Germany, Russia etc). We have the same holiday over here. My grandmother is a World War 2 veteran. She fought in the Warsaw uprising, jumped out of a train headed to Auschwitz (contrary to what the majority of media would like you to believe, Jewish people weren't the only ones who were getting sent to death camps) and saw some horrible shit in her life during war time. A huge part of Poland (something like 90% of my city Warsaw) was destroyed during World War 2, just after reclaiming independance in the first world war. Most of the wars here were a constant struggle for freedom and independance.

Poland was also involved with backing up USA in Afghanistan and Iraq. That's totally different, though. But I can't totally agree with the conclusions of the more priviledged countries about war in general etc. I personally know some veterans who have been through hell in order to preserve their and their countries freedom and I would be a fuckin moron if I weren't thankful for it.

But I understand that this thread is pretty much focused on the US or North America or whatever so that's all I'm going to say on the subject.
Post Fri Nov 12, 2010 10:37 am
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firefly



Joined: 27 Sep 2002
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Location: Montreal
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No, I'm glad you threw in your perspective.

There must exist examples of a righteous reason for war but they are very few and far between.

In Canada at least the focus on remembrance day is almost all on the two world wars. These wars are looked at as examples of "righteous wars". I disagree.

What if a new "righteous war" broke out around the world now and people fall for that racket too. That is what worries me.
Post Fri Nov 12, 2010 11:11 am
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breakfast



Joined: 04 Oct 2006
Posts: 2895
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What if it didn't have quotation marks around it?
Post Fri Nov 12, 2010 1:08 pm
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Raoul DeGroot



Joined: 30 Apr 2009
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Then I guess it would be one of those few and far between examples that he acknowledged and not the ones that he specifically mentioned as being morally questionable despite the popular narrative largely ignoring that aspect?

Is this whole thread basically about getting firefly to have a sense of humor about how serious and "vanguardy" he sounds?
Should quotations only be used within quotations? Sometimes I think so. Yes, I'm using quotations and yes I realize how assholish they sound, but I can't help myself.
Double quotations. Someone needs to pioneer that.


Last edited by Raoul DeGroot on Fri Nov 12, 2010 1:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
Post Fri Nov 12, 2010 1:35 pm
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C.R.A.Z.Y



Joined: 18 Feb 2008
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firefly wrote:


What if a new "righteous war" broke out around the world now and people fall for that racket too. That is what worries me.


this is idiotic
Post Fri Nov 12, 2010 1:42 pm
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Raoul DeGroot



Joined: 30 Apr 2009
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Location: Son Quest
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Huh?
It's really not.
It's maybe blustery to think you have the clarity of vision and speech to somehow guide the ""naive masses""*, but what's the big deal about worrying about people getting sucked into fucking other people's shit up for popular fairy tales? It happens all the time.

*no worries, mates. Those were """"double quotations"""".

"""""" infinity"""""""
Post Fri Nov 12, 2010 1:48 pm
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breakreep
homophobic yet curious


Joined: 27 Sep 2004
Posts: 6627
Location: Fifth Jerusalem
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"Put 'them "in 'this "order 'for "bibliographic 'accuracy.'"'"'"'"
Post Fri Nov 12, 2010 2:54 pm
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