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Strange Famous Forum > Social stuff. Political stuff. KNOWMORE

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Oh Daesu



Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 1847
Location: Vancouver
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remind wrote:


Ha. Ya know, I wasn't referring to you at all. Was just making a statement. But the fact that you could care less about her literary work (which implies that you haven't read anything of hers, right?) and then go on to bash her philosophy (which stems from her literary work, mostly) is interesting.


Her novels. of which I've read the two Big Ones (Fountainhead and Atlas) are terrible. Among the worst writing I have ever come across. This is on top of dangerously insane philosophy.
Post Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:44 pm
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futuristxen



Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 19356
Location: Tighten Your Bible Belt
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My Ayn Rand is Hans Christian Andersen.

I'm a swan.
Post Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:57 pm
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icarus502
kung-pwn master


Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 11287
Location: ann arbor
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Oh Daesu wrote:
remind wrote:


Ha. Ya know, I wasn't referring to you at all. Was just making a statement. But the fact that you could care less about her literary work (which implies that you haven't read anything of hers, right?) and then go on to bash her philosophy (which stems from her literary work, mostly) is interesting.


Her novels. of which I've read the two Big Ones (Fountainhead and Atlas) are terrible. Among the worst writing I have ever come across. This is on top of dangerously insane philosophy.


I only read Atlas Shrugged, and I concur. It's an awful book. There are some books that I really enjoy even if I disagree fundamentally with its author ('Intercourse' by Andrea Dworkin is one). AS is just awful, awful writing, besides anything else.
Post Tue Dec 01, 2009 8:01 pm
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medicineman
HALFLING


Joined: 21 Apr 2007
Posts: 1393
Location: Iowa City
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icarus502 wrote:
Oh Daesu wrote:
remind wrote:


Ha. Ya know, I wasn't referring to you at all. Was just making a statement. But the fact that you could care less about her literary work (which implies that you haven't read anything of hers, right?) and then go on to bash her philosophy (which stems from her literary work, mostly) is interesting.


Her novels. of which I've read the two Big Ones (Fountainhead and Atlas) are terrible. Among the worst writing I have ever come across. This is on top of dangerously insane philosophy.


I only read Atlas Shrugged, and I concur. It's an awful book. There are some books that I really enjoy even if I disagree fundamentally with its author ('Intercourse' by Andrea Dworkin is one). AS is just awful, awful writing, besides anything else.



Word. I just had this argument the other night. She wrote some of the most truly terrible literature ever to become part of the popular lexicon. And on top of that made it an unabashed vehicle for ideas that I find morally reprehensible. But honestly I could really give a shit less about that. Someone put Atlas Shrugged in my hand when I was 16 or so. I thought, hey, that's a clever title. (Still think so.) Probably have never been so turned off by a book in my life. I'm pretty open minded to all sorts of artistic hooha, I usually find some way to enjoy the books I read/music I listen to/whatever even if they aren't that good, and it's very rare for me to actively dislike some form of expression as much as I dislike the dreary, masturbatory writing of Ayn Rand.
Post Wed Dec 02, 2009 3:23 am
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sparrow



Joined: 11 Aug 2009
Posts: 331
Location: stolen land, the place where spirits get eaten.
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remind wrote:
Pff ok.


http://www.aynrand.org

http://www.objectivistcenter.org





look at some of this junk

"The Road to Rationing
Ideas have consequences, and the philosophical errors in the idea of a "right to health care" have led America to the brink of complete government control and rationing of that area of our lives."

http://www.objectivistcenter.org/cth--2217-road_to_rationing.aspx
Post Wed Dec 02, 2009 3:55 am
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futuristxen



Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 19356
Location: Tighten Your Bible Belt
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If Leonard Cohen were to write a song about Dubai would it be called "Diamonds in Dubai"?

I think it would, yes.
Post Wed Dec 02, 2009 7:24 am
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remind



Joined: 22 Jun 2008
Posts: 2189
Location: NJ
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sparrow wrote:
look at some of this junk

"The Road to Rationing
Ideas have consequences, and the philosophical errors in the idea of a "right to health care" have led America to the brink of complete government control and rationing of that area of our lives."

http://www.objectivistcenter.org/cth--2217-road_to_rationing.aspx


So, what you've done is quote a guy by the name of Walter Donway about his take on the current health care state to prove that Rand's philosophy is "bat-shit crazy"? Look, man, it's a little hard to take you seriously about her philosophy when you haven't read a damn thing written by her (maybe some passages out of context at best?). So when you said "i just read her philosophy directly, that way you know, i know what her philosophy is" as if that's the clincher and there's no misinterpretations in your mind... I have to chuckle. Reading her philosophy directly would be reading her. Not a summary of Objectivism. Not an article written by someone else. Her. As a widely misunderstood philosopher in many regards, I would say pick up one of her books, read it through and then decide for yourself (if you can stand her god awful writing!). If you want to, that is. No pressure. :)

I didn't read more than the first 2 paragraphs of that Donway article because I'm at work and don't have time but I don't deny that Rand would disapprove of a right to health care. I do believe everyone should have coverage and, of course, I find the quotation you provided to be junk as well. I mean, the woman considered altruism to be pure evil. Do I find that preposterous? Absolutely. But if you don't understand why she thinks that or if you don't have more of an elaboration, it's easy to scoff and just write her off. Out of all of the people whom I've come across who have read some of her stuff, I seem to be one of the few who's neither a die-hard fan nor a die-hard hater. My respect for her has decreased amidst discovering her stance on homosexuality and other things...but I still think there is value to be retained from her work.

As far as the quality of her writing goes, it's really not that bad, in my opinion. Awful? Come on. I'll admit Atlas Shrugged is tough to get through for the first 100-150 pages but that's mainly because nothing is really happening yet. Besides, she's a philosopher first before she's a writer. I give her credit for expounding her views in novel form even though her writing isn't great. I don't go to Rand when I want good writing. And how many other philosophers in history were shitty writers? Aside from Neitzsche, I wasn't blown away by any philosopher's writing I've read (I'm referring to just writing style here).

I'm done. Fuck Ayn Rand. I wanna be down too.
Post Wed Dec 02, 2009 11:10 am
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Oh Daesu



Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 1847
Location: Vancouver
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Quote:

As a widely misunderstood philosopher in many regards, I would say pick up one of her books,


You're a widely misunderstood philosopher?

But seriously. Don't take his advice. Awful books.


If you are a philosopher, writing philosophy you get a bit of a pass on your writing if you ideas are good. If you are a writer, writing philosophically inspired fiction, you get less of pass on your philosophy, but only if you make up for dubious philosophy with good writing. If you are a philosopher writing fiction, you are get no free pass. Rand fails on both accounts. Bad philosophy and bad writing.

Example of bad writing in Atlas Shrugged (from a quick google search)

""The window frame trembled with the speed of the motion, the pane hung over empty darkness, and dots of light slashed across the glass as luminous streaks, once in a while."
Post Wed Dec 02, 2009 12:05 pm
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remind



Joined: 22 Jun 2008
Posts: 2189
Location: NJ
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Yeah! Fuck Ayn Rand!
Post Wed Dec 02, 2009 12:15 pm
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Oh Daesu



Joined: 11 May 2005
Posts: 1847
Location: Vancouver
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remind wrote:
Yeah! Fuck Ayn Rand!


Is this how you respond normally in argument? Did we dare to disagree with you? Diddums is taking his ball and bat and going home. Typical.
Post Wed Dec 02, 2009 12:23 pm
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remind



Joined: 22 Jun 2008
Posts: 2189
Location: NJ
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Haha nah dude I just don't feel like continuing the argument. For me, it's kinda like "do we have free will?" It's been beaten to death and I don't wanna further derail the thread for people who don't like her anyway. I said what I said and that's it. Besides, I'm not going to engage with someone who tells someone else "don't take his advice...awful books". How about you let sparrow make his own fucking decisions?

"Typical". Please.
Post Wed Dec 02, 2009 12:28 pm
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sparrow



Joined: 11 Aug 2009
Posts: 331
Location: stolen land, the place where spirits get eaten.
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remind, those two sites are not the only sources i read. dont tell me what i know and dont know. ive read numerous academic criticisms of her insane ideas and there is tons of work out there and its easy to find. ive had a friend of mine try and push ayn rand books on me in a weird cultish way numerous times. and what are you talking about? of course you can read the fundamentals of objectivism and still have an understanding of it without reading her books. not really sure what youre trying to say there. that makes no sense to me. on top of that, you dont have to read very much to figure out that her thinking is pretty cross-wired and contradictory. and your a fanboy thats pretty obvious (thats ok) and it seems like the reason your consistently trying to steer this conversation away from how crazy her philosophy is and how that influenced greenspan. i have read ayn rand and it is indeed awful, i couldn't make it through the first 1/4 of the book it was so bad. you assume too much. its not about being down. this isnt a game this is the FED and the world economy were talking about here. you can like her writing AND not agree with her philosophy, no one is saying you cant. take it easy on yourself, bud.

i may try to finish fountainhead sometime down the road, just for you.
Post Wed Dec 02, 2009 12:31 pm
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medicineman
HALFLING


Joined: 21 Apr 2007
Posts: 1393
Location: Iowa City
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So is the pic in the OP actually supposed to be a penis ejaculating into a womb? Or is it something else that just happens to look an awful lot like that? Seems like a very strange thing to want to build.


err i guess it was the third post
Post Wed Dec 02, 2009 12:57 pm
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remind



Joined: 22 Jun 2008
Posts: 2189
Location: NJ
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sparrow wrote:
remind, those two sites are not the only sources i read. dont tell me what i know and dont know. ive read numerous academic criticisms of her insane ideas and there is tons of work out there and its easy to find.


sparrow wrote:
of course you can read the fundamentals of objectivism and still have an understanding of it without reading her books. not really sure what youre trying to say there. that makes no sense to me.


You said you could care less about her literary work. You got offended at my original statement about people who hate Rand without reading her stuff. You also never admitted to reading any Rand until now. So, yeah, I assumed your reading was very limited. My apologies. But if you're going to attack Rand and/or Objectivism, shouldn't you go to the source first rather than those "numerous academic criticisms"? That's what doesn't make sense to me. Here, try this:

"Fuck Ayn Rand." - you
"Word. What have you read of hers?" - someone
"Oh...well...I've mostly read other people's opinions. I started one book but I couldn't make it through the first 1/4 of the book it was so bad." - you

Is that not silly? Ever hear of a book getting better or growing on you as you go on?

sparrow wrote:
ive had a friend of mine try and push ayn rand books on me in a weird cultish way numerous times.


Yes, yes...I know the drill. And that sucks. Anything pushed on to someone would hopefully turn that person off to whatever it is. Whether it's the Bible or Atlas Shrugged, I don't want shit shoved down my throat. I'm with ya. It could be shitty though because it, in turn, makes you a little closed-minded and you could potentially be missing out on something worthwhile all because of that one person doing the pushing/shoving.

sparrow wrote:
your a fanboy thats pretty obvious (thats ok).


Did I enjoy reading what I've read? Yes, more so than not. That is what's obvious. That doesn't make me one of the die-hards. I had a slew of issues and questions to be raised once I finished reading and the things that I've found out since then have only tainted her works, in my mind. But uh yeah, I know being a fan is ok, thanks.

sparrow wrote:
and it seems like the reason your consistently trying to steer this conversation away from how crazy her philosophy is and how that influenced greenspan.


I made a statement about Rand. I wasn't trying to steer the existing conversation. You responded to my statement and we had an exchange all our own. Ok?

sparrow wrote:
i may try to finish fountainhead sometime down the road, just for you.


Not for me, chief. Not for me...
Post Wed Dec 02, 2009 1:11 pm
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note1



Joined: 10 Jul 2002
Posts: 1260
Location: providence
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medicineman wrote:
So is the pic in the OP actually supposed to be a penis ejaculating into a womb? Or is it something else that just happens to look an awful lot like that? Seems like a very strange thing to want to build.


err i guess it was the third post



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palm_Islands


Any chance this thread gets back on track? No? OK
Post Wed Dec 02, 2009 1:28 pm
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