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Racism vs Race-Hatred: An important distinction
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emynd



Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Posts: 2786
Racism vs Race-Hatred: An important distinction  Reply with quote  

I'll probably catch a lot of flack for this, but for the sake of opening up more of a discussion then a Cheese Appreciation thread might, I have a few things to say about "Racism" that were brought up originally in Maxamillion's "Common... Still #1" Thread.

First of all, hugh grants hooker said this:
hugh grants hooker wrote:

also, why is okay to be racist as long as you arent white?
its just as wrong for everyone else as it is for white people.



I'm not interested in discussing whether or not it's "okay" for anyone to be "racist" since I don't think it is. But, I think there should be some clarification of what "racism" actually is.

Simply put, in my view of it all:
- White people expressing a prejudice against minorities is "racism."
- Minorities expressing a prejudice against white people is NOT "racism."
- Minorities expressing a prejudice against other minorities is "racism."

This is mainly because I feel that "racism" should be defined more precisely with the systematics of it all.

Dictionary.com defines "racism" as 1) The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others and 2) Discrimination or prejudice based on race. These, to me, are not definitions of "racism" but a definition of "race hatred." The disctinction here is this: "racism" is a SYSTEMATICALLY created ideology while "race hatred" is just when people hate on others purely because of race (NOT because of unavoidable systematic creation). Therefore, when either whites or other minorities hate on certain minorities, it is primarily because of the systematic dispersal of these prejudiced beliefs and attitudes of racial superiority. But, when a minority hates on a white person, this is primarily because of some sort of angry backlash and/or vengenace based on the white's racism. (There are of course exceptions to this, but they are few and far between and not interesting to the debate.)

So, why even bother classifying one as "racism" and the other as "race hatred"? I feel that this "racism"/"race hatred" distinction is an important one to make because this "race hatred" is promulgated and perpetuated by our American Capitalist system. And only the term "racism" should be used with reference to hatred of minorities, because our system creates a hatred of minorities and not of whites. In order to eradicate "racism" then, we need to understand it as the systematic problem that is.

If we are to take this claim seriously (that "racism" is a systematic creation) then we find that it's not KKK members and ignorant hicks that are the REAL problem that need to be fixed. It's the system that constantly churns out racist ideas, values, and attitudes that needs a revamping. Or, in other words, it's necessary to understand racism as a systematic issue because of the very fact that if we don't we will not be succesful in changing it: one cannot make systematic changes through individual actions.

This is a fairly elemantary concept but it might be worth clarifiying: if a machine in a factory that makes He-Man action figures is broken to the point that it accidentally gives each Orko figure three arms, you can't expect to change the machine by fixing each individual Orko figure, one at a time. You have to fix the systematic error.

(Now, this isn't to say "race hatred" isn't a bad thing. Frankly, I think it's stupid and terrible when any race hates for racial reasons. But, it's worth pointing out that I don't find this to be "racism" with respect to my working definition-- a definition that I think is important if we are really serious about making the necessary changes to eradicate the racism that has dominated the Occident for much too long.)
Post Wed May 07, 2003 9:21 am
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XpeetX



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 91
Location: New Brunswick
Re: Racism vs Race-Hatred: An important distinction  Reply with quote  

emynd wrote:


- Minorities expressing a prejudice against white people is NOT "racism."




Things that make you go hrmmmm.

or

Stupid is as stupid does.
Post Wed May 07, 2003 9:26 am
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Random Sample



Joined: 12 Aug 2002
Posts: 2460
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
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White people suck
Post Wed May 07, 2003 9:30 am
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The_Human



Joined: 30 Jan 2003
Posts: 1693
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Appreciate the thought buy in my interpretation of what you said, it seems by your very definition you are putting whites at a higher 'level' or whatever you want to call it. Your saying that racism against whites by a minority group is not racism because whites are superior. Doesnt add up to me. Your explenation might fit within the definition of racism from dictionary.com, but i deffinently do not agree
Post Wed May 07, 2003 9:33 am
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The_Human



Joined: 30 Jan 2003
Posts: 1693
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To add though, I like the machine thought. Sseems to be an idea for a solution anyhow, more than most have.
Post Wed May 07, 2003 9:36 am
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emynd



Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Posts: 2786
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The_Human wrote:
Appreciate the thought buy in my interpretation of what you said, it seems by your very definition you are putting whites at a higher 'level' or whatever you want to call it. Your saying that racism against whites by a minority group is not racism because whites are superior. Doesnt add up to me. Your explenation might fit within the definition of racism from dictionary.com, but i deffinently do not agree


I must be a terrible writer.

Nobody ever understands what I'm saying.

"Your saying that racism against whites by a minority group is not racism because whites are superior."

What the fuck? Where in got dang hell did I say that kind of shit?

"Your explenation might fit within the definition of racism from dictionary.com, but i deffinently do not agree"

This is pretty much the OPPOSITE of what I said.

Am I really that incoherent? This is troubling.
Post Wed May 07, 2003 9:38 am
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XpeetX



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
Posts: 91
Location: New Brunswick
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Well my opinion on your saying that racism against whites is ok because, the white devil is the cock-man oppressor. Therefore hating him is acceptable because he's keeping "us" down.

Racism is racism. Generalizing a race is still generalizing. Hate is still hate. Sugarcoat it however you want and your still too absorbed in your own world to see what else is going on.
Post Wed May 07, 2003 9:42 am
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Dee



Joined: 19 Jul 2002
Posts: 7872
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XpeetX. I don't know if you're aware, but slavery wasnt' an equal opportunity system in the United States. This country has a systematically ingrained racism towards those who used to be forced to do labor for whites. In fact, it is SO ingrained that BOTH whites AND blacks who arrive here after slavery fall into these roles, unavoidably.
Post Wed May 07, 2003 9:46 am
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emynd



Joined: 13 Mar 2003
Posts: 2786
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XpeetX wrote:
Well my opinion on your saying that racism against whites is ok because, the white devil is the cock-man oppressor. Therefore hating him is acceptable because he's keeping "us" down.


I don't even come close to saying this.

In my view, hating on whites is not "racism." It's "race hatred." "Race hatred" is neither better nor worse then "racism." It's just a different beats. It's a terrible, stupid, and ignorant reaction. But, it's not "OK" to hate anybody. I'm just saying the logic behind "racism" and "race hatred" is much different and we need to address this if we want things to change.

Where do I make the claim that "racism against whites is ok"? Please show me.
Post Wed May 07, 2003 9:48 am
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XpeetX



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
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DJDee by accepting that and saying that its ok for people to fall into these roles we are allowing it to continue. Which it is not. On a side note, have you ever read A People's History of The United States? Blacks were not the only ones held as slaves, whites also held whites as slaves. White guilt is taught to us, as is being ok to hate whites for their past aggressions. Giving in to it is NOT acceptable. Saying its ok for racism to be "systematically ingrained" (which I disagree with) and "unavoidable" is a cheap excuse.

Emynd you clarfied my confusion. As long as racism directed at ANYONE is thought of as a negative, I agree. I just personally have a problem with "reverse" racism being acceptable.
Post Wed May 07, 2003 10:01 am
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Dee



Joined: 19 Jul 2002
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XpeetX wrote:
DJDee by accepting that and saying that its ok for people to fall into these roles we are allowing it to continue. Which it is not. On a side note, have you ever read A People's History of The United States? Blacks were not the only ones held as slaves, whites also held whites as slaves. White guilt is taught to us, as is being ok to hate whites for their past aggressions. Giving in to it is NOT acceptable. Saying its ok for racism to be "systematically ingrained" (which I disagree with) and "unavoidable" is a cheap excuse.

Emynd you clarfied my confusion. As long as racism directed at ANYONE is thought of as a negative, I agree. I just personally have a problem with "reverse" racism being acceptable.


I never said it was OK. I said that's the way it is.

And I've never heard that whites were enslaved in the United States. Do you have evidence of this?
Post Wed May 07, 2003 10:03 am
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XpeetX



Joined: 21 Apr 2003
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Location: New Brunswick
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Its in Howard Zinn's A Peoples History of the United States. Which is available at EVERY book store. He updates it yearly. Its a book that presents what we learned in school, and everything they didn't teach us in school in regards to the history of this country. I highly recommend it. It also comes on cd, if you didn't live 3 states away from me I'd let you borrow it.
Post Wed May 07, 2003 10:16 am
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Dee



Joined: 19 Jul 2002
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If there was some sort of exception, fine. But for the most part, slavery in the United States was a racially based system. If you are contending this point, perhaps you're reading the wrong history book.


Edit: If you're referring to indentured servitude, that's a completely different system...
Post Wed May 07, 2003 10:19 am
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tinkleDRINKER



Joined: 25 Jul 2002
Posts: 788
Re: Racism vs Race-Hatred: An important distinction  Reply with quote  

emynd wrote:


Dictionary.com defines "racism" as 1) The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others and 2) Discrimination or prejudice based on race. These, to me, are not definitions of "racism" but a definition of "race hatred." The disctinction here is this: "racism" is a SYSTEMATICALLY created ideology while "race hatred" is just when people hate on others purely because of race (NOT because of unavoidable systematic creation). Therefore, when either whites or other minorities hate on certain minorities, it is primarily because of the systematic dispersal of these prejudiced beliefs and attitudes of racial superiority. But, when a minority hates on a white person, this is primarily because of some sort of angry backlash and/or vengenace based on the white's racism. (There are of course exceptions to this, but they are few and far between and not interesting to the debate.)

So, why even bother classifying one as "racism" and the other as "race hatred"? I feel that this "racism"/"race hatred" distinction is an important one to make because this "race hatred" is promulgated and perpetuated by our American Capitalist system. And only the term "racism" should be used with reference to hatred of minorities, because our system creates a hatred of minorities and not of whites


let me say first i know what you are getting at and i think that your intentions are good; however, i feel that you are wrong and i think that what you are saying is dangerous.

to give just a little background as to where i am coming from. i do not believe in the characterization of people by race. i think that it has provided nothing but anger and alienation. i also do not feel that are any inherent similarities/differences between me (white) and any other person of my or any other skin tone. i reject the assumption that skin tone has anything to do with the individual self and i feel that any pride/disdain felt for people of like/different skin tones is a social construct.

getting away from me and my unfounded personal beliefs. you can define racism any way you want, you can even say that it is systematically created and susquently perpetuated by capitalism. i will agree that the US property system perpetuates racism; however, you can not say

But, when a minority hates on a white person, this is primarily because of some sort of angry backlash and/or vengenace based on the white's racism. (There are of course exceptions to this, but they are few and far between and not interesting to the debate.)

I feel that this "racism"/"race hatred" distinction is an important one to make because this "race hatred" is promulgated and perpetuated by our American Capitalist system. And only the term "racism" should be used with reference to hatred of minorities, because our system creates a hatred of minorities and not of whites

i think you see what i am getting at. if the US capatilist society perpetuates white superiority, and white racism angers minorities creating anger towards whites; than that, by your definition is racism. that is the US system creating hatred of whites. do you know what i am saying?

i think that your idea is dagerous because it places total racist accountability on what you call "whites". when in fact by your definition of racism any person who hates on another race as a result of the our capitalist society is racist. i know that this is not what you were getting at, but, it is what it is.
i think that if you are going to pursue an agrument about the capitalist system and how it oppresses certian socio-economic groups than i think you should leave race out of it and focus more on the real problem which is between the "have" and the "have-nots"
Post Wed May 07, 2003 10:42 am
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Dee



Joined: 19 Jul 2002
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Figure a guy named "tinkle drinker" would have intelligent insight?
ha.


Dude, and correct me if I'm wrong Emynd, but he's saying that racism as a term just means the predjudice inherent in the system. Black on white predjudice, in general, is not a part of our system. There are no people denying whites homes in the expensive black neighborhoods. Its not harder for whites to get a taxi. Whites aren't denied bank loans on the basis of their skin color.
Race hatred, E is saying, is the reaction to this. He's just defining the terms, and point out that they are different and have different solutions.

I think a lot of you are missing the point...
Post Wed May 07, 2003 10:54 am
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