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So... what's up with healthcare exactly?
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jstile



Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Posts: 1236
Location: London
So... what's up with healthcare exactly?  Reply with quote  

I know you lot must be pretty sick of hearing about this all the time, but I'm watching the news and I just saw that apparently US support for universal healthcare has dipped from 69% approval in 2007 to 54% now. And there are some angry motherfuckers. So, what exactly is the deal? It looks like a lot of right wing rabble-raising, but is there a genuine argument against... y'know, helping the sick and needy? Do these people really look at other countries' healthcare systems and go, "no, I think we're happy with ours even though it doesn't really help out the poor"?

Educate a mildly interested Englishman if you can be bothered. If not... well, don't bother. Grats.
Post Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:31 pm
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Stumbleweed



Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 9740
Location: Denver
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I'm as lost as you. The right-wing controversy manufacturing machine is in full-force, but I have no idea how people are falling for that shit again. Especially when it's essentially a public option as opposed to an entirely public system... just makes no fucking sense and I wanna slap the next person who disagrees right in their god damn ignorant face.
Post Mon Aug 10, 2009 3:40 pm
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Smurf Stomper



Joined: 12 Dec 2006
Posts: 755
Location: Zoo Town
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Stumbleweed wrote:
I'm as lost as you. The right-wing controversy manufacturing machine is in full-force, but I have no idea how people are falling for that shit again. Especially when it's essentially a public option as opposed to an entirely public system... just makes no fucking sense and I wanna slap the next person who disagrees right in their god damn ignorant face.


Damn dude, same page here. It's some craziness. There is so much bullshit out there right now. The bill hasn't even been written yet and everyone is up in arms about it. I guess there are about five different versions out there that they are then going to combine into the final plan. Basically the health insurance and pharmacy companies are spending an ass load of money to lobby against this and it's working. There are so many uneducated, lazy ass people here that will buy whatever Hannity or Rush are saying. Some people (Sarah Palin) believe that this new system will be an easier way to euthanize people.

I have health insurance but I never use it because it's still too damn expensive to go to the doctor. Right now our company pays over $2300 a month to supply insurance to three people...it's wrong...
Post Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:06 pm
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Confidential



Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 2040
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I don't understand it myself. There is lots of disinformation propogated by the right. They are relying on cold war era anxieties about socialism vs. freedom and democracy. Single payer is pretty much out of the question now. The right has mobilized a group of patriots to disrupt some town hall meetings, then re-presented it as grassroots activism. They have played on the fear of elders implying there will be some kind of commie death squad visiting their hospital bed. They are relentless and well organized and the dems haven't successfully discredited the disinformation.
Post Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:07 pm
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LuvSpeakeasy



Joined: 03 Jul 2002
Posts: 809
Location: miami
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this site was just launched today by obama's administration to squash some of that crazy talk:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/realitycheck/
Post Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:10 pm
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Basilisk



Joined: 03 May 2004
Posts: 1782
Location: NH
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I'm not real clear what's going on either. My buddy at work likes right-wing radio, and I listen as well just to see what they're saying.
Here are the concerns I'm hearing:
1) the gov't sucks at running things, there's no reason healthcare will be different
2) gov't healthcare will not be an option. gov't healthcare will be mandatory. Except for congressmen/senators/other politicians. They can keep their current plans
3) The gov't will be choosing what research gets funded (I'm clear on this one- aren't they sorta doing that already? This won't stop private research, right?)
4) The gov't will establish a commission, which more or less chooses if you're worthy of care. This includes drugs and surgery
5) Because the healthcare will be mandatory, you're screwed on #4 even if you want to pay for it yourself
6) Illegal immigrants will get the healthcare

None of these make sense to me except #1. Anyone willing to dispel these ideas would be much appreciated
Post Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:10 pm
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jstile



Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Posts: 1236
Location: London
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Smurf Stomper wrote:
Some people (Sarah Palin) believe that this new system will be an easier way to euthanize people.


Ah yeh, that was another bit of the story I saw. This from Palin's Facebook page:


Quote:


Statement on the Current Health Care Debate

As more Americans delve into the disturbing details of the nationalized health care plan that the current administration is rushing through Congress, our collective jaw is dropping, and we’re saying not just no, but hell no!

The Democrats promise that a government health care system will reduce the cost of health care, but as the economist Thomas Sowell has pointed out, government health care will not reduce the cost; it will simply refuse to pay the cost. And who will suffer the most when they ration care? The sick, the elderly, and the disabled, of course. The America I know and love is not one in which my parents or my baby with Down Syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama’s “death panel” so his bureaucrats can decide, based on a subjective judgment of their “level of productivity in society,” whether they are worthy of health care. Such a system is downright evil.

Health care by definition involves life and death decisions. Human rights and human dignity must be at the center of any health care discussion.

Rep. Michele Bachmann highlighted the Orwellian thinking of the president’s health care advisor, Dr. Ezekiel Emanuel, the brother of the White House chief of staff, in a floor speech to the House of Representatives. I commend her for being a voice for the most precious members of our society, our children and our seniors.

We must step up and engage in this most crucial debate. Nationalizing our health care system is a point of no return for government interference in the lives of its citizens. If we go down this path, there will be no turning back. Ronald Reagan once wrote, “Government programs, once launched, never disappear. Actually, a government bureau is the nearest thing to eternal life we’ll ever see on this earth.” Let’s stop and think and make our voices heard before it’s too late.

- Sarah Palin


http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=113851103434

I like the idea of a 'death panel'.
Post Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:14 pm
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Confidential



Joined: 23 Jan 2004
Posts: 2040
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part of the propaganda involves manipulating numbers. so the republicans claim that there aren't really as many uninsured people as the other side is claiming. Then they say that half of uninsured people don't want to be insured because they are 18-25 and would rather spend their money elsewhere.
Post Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:14 pm
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LuvSpeakeasy



Joined: 03 Jul 2002
Posts: 809
Location: miami
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Basilisk wrote:

2) gov't healthcare will not be an option. gov't healthcare will be mandatory. Except for congressmen/senators/other politicians. They can keep their current plans


no, it's definitely being presented as a public option. that's what they're touting as a huge part of the reform's appeal.
Post Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:18 pm
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Stumbleweed



Joined: 09 Mar 2005
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Location: Denver
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Yeah I mean my monthly costs are almost nothing (like $25) but if I actually got sick or needed surgery, I'm still ruining a few months worth of budgeting. I'm lucky enough to be reasonably healthy, but if I was like most people going for yearly check-ups, going to the doctor when I'm sick, etc., I'd be paying a bunch. And my employer (THE STATE OF CO, which is hurting as bad as any right now) is paying something like $200 per month to "care for" a healthy 24 year-old who hasn't been to the doctor more than once in a year for the 5 years I've been working there.

One of my Libertarian friends objects on the grounds that it's creating yet another monstrous government program. I guess I understand that, but right now there's a monstrous government + private sector program that is leaving millions uninsured... reduce the private sector's role in that a bit and insure more people -- if we're in essentially the same boat cost-wise, what's the harm there? And the fact that most of the plan involves cutting costs and waste out of the system, I don't think we'd actually bein the same boat cost-wise when it all works out.

It's just manufactured discontent spoon-fed to a bunch of idiots who don't know anything about the health care system and enjoy sitting on their laurels and making these fucks rich instead of having to think of an alternative. Same reason the fucking dickbag Repugs and fence-sitter Dems don't have a plan, there's no good option aside from retaining the status quo or going to some kind of a public option. What is there to argue for re: the status quo? "Uhh, we pay more per person and have less people insured! We have higher disease rates here despite having "preventative care" throughout most of our lives! Uhh, fuck I'm running out of positives to trumpet.."

They clearly don't give a fuck about people being healthy or having stable financial futures... frankly, I'm not really sure what their motivation is these days since most of the money would still stay in the insurance industry in the plans being circulated. Not like we're disbanding the vile fuckers and giving their money to the poor, we're just reigning them in a bit.


Last edited by Stumbleweed on Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
Post Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:20 pm
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Jared Paul



Joined: 15 Jul 2002
Posts: 3720
Location: www.PrayersForAtheists.org
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What studies are they citing though?

There are plenty of current studies that show that the average citizen's desire for Universal Health Care is higher than ever.

These polls drop in numbers when they shift the question to "do you want Universal Health Care if it means raising your taxes?"

Taxes wouldn't have to be raised at all if they took the money out of the bloated military budget and tabulated in the difference between what american citizens would save in insurance premiums, etc.

More people than ever know about and want a Universal Health Care plan; more people than ever understand that Single Payer isn't a hand out, it's people using their own tax dollars to pay for quality medical care through a federal program.
Post Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:29 pm
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jstile



Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Posts: 1236
Location: London
 Reply with quote  

Jared Paul wrote:
What studies are they citing though?



Yeh I dunno man, it was BBC News so I guess it would have been a Gallup poll or something similar. As you say though, the wording will have an impact on the result.
Post Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:42 pm
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McTools



Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 181
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My issue is the price, I'm not going to give them another dollar of my money! I heard Obama in one of his speeches saying that the price was going to be comparible to the private systems that are in place. Bullshit! The taxes are going up, school funding in dropping, they spend over 200 billion a year fighting a war I want not part of, whisky tango foxtrot!!! Why are schools and librarys closing down but they're still instituting more silly taxes after more silly taxes. Tax carbon? Next they'll be taxing the water like they do in other countries. Fuck privatized air and water! Where does this money go?!? This country already seems like a Red country to me, none of us really own any thing, you don't pay your taxes your property's gone, they have a manditory tax on us that they use for their own plans, with out a single consideration for us. They own every thing and take forced taxes from the people to do what they wish, where the fuck is the democracy?

I've been through the health care system in Europe as an American with no money, and it was the greatest hospital experience of my life! Canada and them still have plenty of private companys, but the public system is there for you even if you left your incurence card at home, no sweat at the ER, patch you up and off you go!

I hope that the final plan they come with is something proper, cuz if I have to pay extra for my medical to the feds, I still won't have insurence. Why not take some of that war budget, make a system, and fund it with money they already have? Fuck your war, pay my medical bills!
Post Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:47 pm
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jstile



Joined: 13 Feb 2006
Posts: 1236
Location: London
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@McTools

European healthcare is 'so good' because we pay a hell of a lot more tax than you mate. I earn the equivalent of $25000/annum, and I pay 22% income tax. If you want universal healthcare, you have to pay for it. Sorry man, them's the breaks.
Post Mon Aug 10, 2009 4:57 pm
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Stumbleweed



Joined: 09 Mar 2005
Posts: 9740
Location: Denver
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You all also have some nice fucking roads. Ours are shit... feels like I'm gonna slip a disc every time I ride my scooter on side roads.
Post Mon Aug 10, 2009 5:03 pm
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