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TurnpikeGates



Joined: 30 Jun 2003
Posts: 517
Location: Bay Area
Coup in Honduras  Reply with quote  

Surprised you guys aren't talking about this yet.


Quote:

A military coup has taken place in Honduras on Sunday, June 28, led by School of the Americas (SOA) graduate Romeo Vasquez. Members of the Honduran military surrounded the presidential palace and forced the democratically elected president, Manuel Zelaya, into custody. He was immediately flown to Costa Rica.

The Honduran state television was taken off the air. The electricity supply to the capital Tegucigalpa, as well telephone and cellphone lines were cut. The people of Honduras are going into the streets. Labor unions are planning for a general strike. From Costa Rica, President Zelaya has called for a non-violent response from the people

From SOAW.com (School Of the Americas Watch).

Also, check out the wikipedia page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honduran_coup


What do y'all think? I'm still processing this.
Post Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:36 pm
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Mikal kHill



Joined: 29 Jun 2002
Posts: 6850
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We're too busy debating advertisements running in other countries to notice.

-kHill
Post Mon Jun 29, 2009 12:51 pm
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Captiv8



Joined: 25 Aug 2006
Posts: 8501
Location: Third Coast
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All I can think of is Confessions of an Economic Hitman. I wouldn't be surprised if a large American company was behind this, pulling the strings one way or another to set some kind of puppet stage up. Hugo Chavez should be on guard.
Post Tue Jun 30, 2009 7:13 am
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O2K
SFF has a stalker.


Joined: 14 Jul 2004
Posts: 1856
Location: Orange County
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Captiv8 wrote:
All I can think of is Confessions of an Economic Hitman. I wouldn't be surprised if a large American company was behind this, pulling the strings one way or another to set some kind of puppet stage up. Hugo Chavez should be on guard.


please. they dont want to here that here.


but Confessions of an Economic Hitman is a good book. It kept my interests. Especially in the 007 style he wrote it in.
Post Tue Jun 30, 2009 9:07 am
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patiodee



Joined: 14 Dec 2005
Posts: 774
Location: Bar-thay-lona
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Mikal kHill wrote:
We're too busy debating advertisements running in other countries to notice.

-kHill


Argh, this is sort of true. It's hard to find much about this in most outlets. Here's an op-ed by Vargas Llosa's son, who I guess is well-regarded in his own right:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/30/opinion/30Vargasllosa.html?_r=1

As the general elections scheduled for November began to creep up, Mr. Zelaya decided to hold a referendum with the ultimate aim of allowing him to seek re-election. The move violated articles of the Constitution that forbid changes to the presidential limit of one four-year term and establish the legal procedure for constitutional amendments. The electoral court, the Supreme Court, the attorney general, Congress and members of his own party declared Mr. Zelaya’s intention unlawful. Then, on Sunday, the military stepped in.

The ideal solution would be for Mr. Zelaya to return to power and leave office next year, when his successor takes over. However, it is doubtful that the coup leaders will back down. It is also unlikely that, if he were triumphantly reinstated, Mr. Zelaya would give up his re-election scheme. All of this almost guarantees a period of illegitimate rule in Honduras — and of incessant exploitation of the situation by Mr. Chávez, the unlikely champion of Jeffersonian democracy in Latin America.
Post Tue Jun 30, 2009 10:57 am
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TurnpikeGates



Joined: 30 Jun 2003
Posts: 517
Location: Bay Area
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Here's a really clear explanation. I'm bolding a few key points. Most important is that Zelaya WAS GOING TO STEP DOWN IN NOVEMBER. He proposed what amounts to an opinion poll, which MIGHT lead to a vote on whether or not to write a new constitution, which would be drafted by an assembly and THEN approved OR NOT by the voting public.


Quote:

Hey, I am currently in Berlin on a minor holiday away from Central America, and then this stuff happens! I phoned the Honduran embassy here, but they were not quite sure which side they were on yet, and the Nicaraguan embassy asked me if I could try to help them get their statements out to the big media.

I do not particularly care about the legal situation much more than many other aspects of this, but the reporting on this has been equal also in many other European countries, and so I thought I would translate and repost this Norwegian response to the allegations that are made:

President Zelaya has not violated the constitution



(original in Norwegian, written by Latin American Groups in Norway, http://www.latin-amerikagruppene.no/Artikler/10685.html )


Several media reported Monday that the president of Honduras was abducted by the military, after he allegedly should have tried to conduct a referendum to change the Honduran constitution to prolong his presidency. Latin-American groups in Norway (LAG) believe that this is a gross simplification and inaccurate information, which is used to support arguments that coup government uses to justify the coup against the state government of Manuel Zelaya. LAG will here provide a thorough explanation of what happened in Honduras, and hope that the Norwegian media, will henceforth present the situation in a more balanced way.


1) President Zelaya called for a non-binding popular consultation and not a binding popular plebiscite. In accordance with article 5 of the "Act on popular participation" from 2006, all state powers in Honduras can carry out such inquiries to learn and take into account what people think about certain actions and issues.



2) The non-binding popular consultation asked what people would think about adding another ballot box at the election in November 2009. This vote was to conduct a poll whether people wanted to form a basis for a future assembly to write a new constitution. If people had said yes, an election for the members of this assembly would then have been arranged. After the assembly would have been chosen, they would have made a proposal of a new constitution, which eventually would have had to have been voted upon by the people.



3) Article 5 and 374 in the current Constitution from 1982 (with the reforms of 2005) specifies that it is not possible to reform the Articles of the Constitution which deals with the government, presidency, Honduran territory or opportunities for re-election, as described in the Constitution. It is not possible to conduct binding referendums with this purpose. So here there is a distinction between reforming the Articles of the current Constitution, and to undergo a democratic process to create a new constitution with an elected assembly set up to write a new constitution.



4) The Constitution does not prohibit the formation of an elected assembly with a mandate to write a new constitution.



5) The High Court of Honduras did not look upon the "Act of popular participation" as unconstitutional when it was adopted in 2006. Thus, it is not unconstitutional that the government is conducting a consultation of this type.



6) When it comes to a possible extension of the election term, this would have been something the constitutional Assembly would have had to take a position on. In the current constitution the president can only sit for one term. Zelaya can not stand for re-election in November 2009. He could possibly have tried again, once a new constitution was in place, which would have taken one to two years depending on how quickly the constitutional assembly worked. The new constitution proposal would have had be adopted by the people in a popular vote before it could have been put into effect.



7) Constitution Article 205 Paragraph 22 specifies that Congress can prosecute officials who violate the constitution. Article 239 states that a president can only sit for one term, and if the president tries to break this article, he will automatically lose office and with this immunity. If Zelaya had broken the law, there are thus legitimate procedures that can be followed. This is not what Congress and the military used. He will, however, be accused of breaking article 239, which is not the case.



8) it seems clear that those doing the military coup realized that they didn't have a case against President Manuel Zelaya and therefore decided to ignore the Constitution and the democratic institutions that they claim to defend.



A misleading representation of the intentions of Manuel Zelaya is not acting neutral. It helps spread the propaganda the coup makers need to manipulate the international and Honduran media, which may help to recognize and maintain their power position. The same happens if this legitimate discussion is played down. So LAG asks the media to use a more balanced language.

translated by Johannes Wilm
Post Tue Jun 30, 2009 11:01 pm
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leifkolt



Joined: 01 May 2009
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I keep trying to imagine if Obabma tried something like this (extending term limits in this fashion), what exactly would go down.

Hmmmm..... we'd eat chips?
Post Wed Jul 01, 2009 9:29 am
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O2K
SFF has a stalker.


Joined: 14 Jul 2004
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Location: Orange County
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leifkolt wrote:
I keep trying to imagine if Obabma tried something like this (extending term limits in this fashion), what exactly would go down.

Hmmmm..... we'd eat chips?


peaceful protest
Post Wed Jul 01, 2009 9:30 am
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leifkolt



Joined: 01 May 2009
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I guess I should have said 'Any american president' instead of just Obama... he just happens to be President right now.
Post Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:05 am
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T-Wrex
p00ny tang


Joined: 30 Jun 2002
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leifkolt wrote:
I keep trying to imagine if Obabma tried something like this (extending term limits in this fashion), what exactly would go down.

Hmmmm..... we'd eat chips?


H. J. Res 5 is on the table...

Proposing an amendment to the Constitution of the United States to repeal the twenty-second article of amendment, thereby removing the limitation on the number of terms an individual may serve as President.
Post Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:52 am
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phataccino



Joined: 10 Jan 2004
Posts: 4771
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I don't necessarily mind term limts, but they are decidedly undemocratic.
Post Wed Jul 01, 2009 11:03 am
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leifkolt



Joined: 01 May 2009
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T-Wrex wrote:
leifkolt wrote:
I keep trying to imagine if Obabma tried something like this (extending term limits in this fashion), what exactly would go down.

Hmmmm..... we'd eat chips?


H. J. Res 5 is on the table...

Proposing an amendment to the Constitution of the United States to repeal the twenty-second article of amendment, thereby removing the limitation on the number of terms an individual may serve as President.


Really? You have a link to this bill?
Post Wed Jul 01, 2009 11:05 am
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Alan Hague



Joined: 05 Sep 2008
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Seems unlikely that it'll go anywhere. It has no cosponsors 6 months in to its introduction. Apparently, similar resolutions have been introduced before; Harry Reid wrote one in 1989.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=hj111-5

H. J. Res. 5:
111th Congress

Proposing an amendment to the Constitution of the United States to repeal the twenty-second article of amendment, thereby removing the limitation on the number of terms an individual may serve as President.

Sponsor: Rep. José Serrano [D-NY16](no cosponsors)

Occurred: Introduced Jan 6, 2009
Occurred: Referred to Committee

Last Action: Feb 9, 2009 - Referred to the Subcommittee on the Constitution, Civil Rights, and Civil Liberties.[/url]
Post Wed Jul 01, 2009 12:26 pm
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Alan Hague



Joined: 05 Sep 2008
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By the way, thank you for that post, Turnpike Gates. That's the best I've seen it laid out so far.

The coup has been basically universally condemned - the UN, the US, the OAS, etc.

Zelaya says he's going to return to Honduras Thursday...and the interim government says they'll arrest him as soon as he does.

I'm really interested in seeing how that will play out.
Post Wed Jul 01, 2009 12:29 pm
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TurnpikeGates



Joined: 30 Jun 2003
Posts: 517
Location: Bay Area
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leifkolt wrote:
I keep trying to imagine if Obabma tried something like this (extending term limits in this fashion), what exactly would go down.

Hmmmm..... we'd eat chips?


If you mean by setting up a poll to see if we're interested in completely re-writing the constitution--- it would probably lose in a landslide, never get to the constitutional convention stage, and thus term limits would not change.
Post Thu Jul 02, 2009 12:42 am
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