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Please Kill Me: The Uncensored Oral History of Punk
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Awww mn



Joined: 03 Jul 2002
Posts: 2511
Location: barbary coast
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August Spies wrote:
I think it the head of MC5 was just the leader of the White Panthers and MC5 was the black/white panther house band.

tehre were a lot more white panthers than just the members of MC5 (im pretty sure)


john sinclair, their manager started the White Panthers movement. and with MC5 spreading the politics through ther music and fans the White Panthers recruited and expanded its membership. Course, it was nothing compared to the stature of the Black Panthers and it fizzled quickly.
Post Wed Jan 01, 2003 12:47 pm
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sequence



Joined: 21 Jul 2002
Posts: 2182
Location: www.anteuppdx.com
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the MC5 still gets taken real seriously around Detroit, and I think they were taken pretty seriously back in the day from what some old folks I know who were hanging out in the D back then have told me. Either way they rock real hard.

Sage, I recommend you purchase an album.

Adam
Post Wed Jan 01, 2003 4:27 pm
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YestUrdaysMistake



Joined: 03 Jan 2003
Posts: 13
Location: santa fe, nm
Re: Please Kill Me: The Uncensored Oral History of Punk  Reply with quote  

awww damn wrote:
i just finished reading this REALLY entertaining book on the history of punk. it's excellent and very very funny..and i recommend it even if you aren't a fan of the music. it's 444 pages of just snippets of interviews from everyone (lou reed, iggy, deedee, blah blah) and it's a very easy read, telling it chronologically from its early velvets roots to its "momentum slowdown" in the Reagan era.

there's a couple of sad (junkiedom) and cringeworthy (vomit and blood) moments as well. but i think what fascinated me is how all of this stuff was happening and the six-degrees of seperation is something i marvel at.

1) Bob Dylan penning a song for Nico
2) Miles Davis being in the audience seeing The Stooges perform and getting BLED ON from openwounds Iggy Pop and saying "I like the Stooges. They're original."
3) William Burroughs digging on Television and Patti Smith.
4) MC5 being the only band to play the the 1968 Chicago Democratic Convention Riots.
5) the road manager for Parliament turned the Stooges onto horse. who knew what sad junkie demons he would create later on, eh.

my favorite is Iggy telling about how he wanted to be really confrontational when he performed and how he got that idea from seeing a gross and drunk Jim Morrison play at the University of Michigan. So for the stooges first performance, Iggy decides to bleach his hair and shave all his eyebrows off. Then about 10 minutes into the show he starts sweating and realizes that's what ya need eyebrows for. So his eyes became so swollen with oil and glitter.

The chapter on The Stooges ends when they're at the peak of their junkiedom, and the manager Danny Fields gets a call from the police that The Stooges had just driven a 14-ft truck under a 13-ft bridge in Ann Arbor.

so yeah, it's got action too.


i interviewed John Holmstrom a while back in ny and we talked a lot about legs and that book and some of the stories it didn't tell. it was really interesting........legs actually used to live in a hippy commune before getting involved with punk magazine, and was pretty drugfree though he makes himself out to be this huge mess.
Post Tue Jan 21, 2003 12:48 pm
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name



Joined: 12 Nov 2002
Posts: 955
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punk died when the clash released "give em enough rope."
histories of punk that end with the pistols/clash are accurate.
the american version of the genre lacked everything that i felt punk was about. fuck all that "i wanna be sedated" bullshit. lydon, strummer, et al never released song about innane crap like that. even now, john lydon admits that sid vicious was one of the biggest dumbasses he ever knew and never understood the music as a social movement.

btw- i think lydon's "rotten" (although it mainly focuses on the pistols) is a much better exploration of the music and the time.
Post Tue Jan 21, 2003 1:18 pm
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natas sevol dog



Joined: 02 Dec 2002
Posts: 345
Location: dallas area
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the pistols sucked hard. and punk is still going strong to this day, thats retarded to say it ended at such and such time.does anyone know if resist and exist is still around, i havent heard anything new from them in a while(i guess i dont really keep up with many bands thou), i cant remember their webpage.



I kill children
Post Tue Jan 21, 2003 2:51 pm
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name



Joined: 12 Nov 2002
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Quote:

the pistols sucked hard.


ok big guy
Post Tue Jan 21, 2003 4:28 pm
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August Spies



Joined: 09 Aug 2002
Posts: 1979
Location: D.C.
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I 100% disagree. The British version of punk was at best the incubation stage. Everything that punk means, to me and what I hear generally, is emodied far better in the hardcore movement of the late 70s/80's.

For example: DIY ethics, the idea of putting out your own records, doing your OWN tours, starting your own record labels, making your own clubs. All of this comes from American punk. SST, Dischord, Plan 9, Alternative Tenticles etc... all labels started from american punks.

The British were still stuck in the corporate record labels hands. As you can see, the fall of british punk is when the Corporatations decided to pull out of punk... (after sid vicious died and such).

The only exception to this rule is Crass and crass records.
Second example
: Postivite expression vs. silly nihilism and "street politics"

While it is true that the Sex Pisotls and the Clash had real politics and were trying to do something positive and important. Most british punk bands did not. They were "street punk" bands who just sang about fighting and drinking. The "I wanna be sedated" attitude is found much more in british punk, even to this day, than American punk.

If we consider the Ramones as merely a pre-punk band, as I would, all the early punk bands were more like the clash. Dead Kenneds and they California scene, Minor threat and the east coast scene.

------------
lastly the British punk scene, despite the efforts of bands like the Clash and the Pistols, quickly became a mere fashion show. A complete mockery of what punk was originally. AMerican punk did not fall into this trap like the british. Personally, id attribute this to the DIY ethics and the independent scene.

Things that have huge impact outside of the punk/hardcore scene, such as Zines and indie record labels, are really a legacy of the american scene.

:P

p.s. quite honestly it sounds like you know very little about the history of punk in america if you think it can be summed up by some early ramones lyric.
Post Tue Jan 21, 2003 5:53 pm
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YapDaps



Joined: 17 Dec 2002
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Location: Bay Area, ca
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August Spies wrote:

While it is true that the Sex Pisotls and the Clash had real politics and were trying to do something positive and important. Most british punk bands did not. They were "street punk" bands who just sang about fighting and drinking. The "I wanna be sedated" attitude is found much more in british punk, even to this day, than American punk.


i disagree with this. there were a number of influential British Crust/Punk bands in the late 70's-early 80's that had a politically-based message in their music.

you've obviously never heard of bands like Amebix, Disorder(two of the greatest punk bands ever, in some circles), Doom, Discharge or Chaos UK. these bands were known for their politically charged songs and imagery.

Amebix is one of the bands credited with the creation of Crust (basically a sub-genre of punk, a bit more metal-sounding than traditional punk). their lyrics speak of the evils of man/government, religion, and the oppression of the masses. listen to: "slave CTG", "chain reaction", "spoils of victory" and "arise" for an idea of their sound. they were around from 78-87 (definately POST pistols/clash-type bands)

the same with Disorder, except they're a bit more traditional-sounding in their music.

listen to the War Crimes LP by Doom along with these other bands, and you'll see that UK punk of that era was most assuredly not all about "fighting and drinking"
Post Tue Jan 21, 2003 7:50 pm
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August Spies



Joined: 09 Aug 2002
Posts: 1979
Location: D.C.
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Yapple:


Quote:

you've obviously never heard of bands like...


Yes I have heard of them. THey were a part of the peace punk scene, or the crass records scene which I mentioned above. Anyway I stand by what I said, some of those are later bands and either way they were not the majority.

Bands like Cockney Rejects, Angelic Upstarts, Exploited, Blitz etc... were the bigger bands and better examples of the early English Punk scene IMHO.

As a counter example consider two big compilations: Not So Quite on the western front (Alt. Tent.) and the early Dischord years comp. Good examples of the east coast and west coast scenes.

Virtually every band on those comps apply to what I was saying about the American scene.

-------------------
Regardless even accepting your take on this, Crass records and bands like Amebix and Discharge are post-sex pistols and mostly post-give them enough rope.
Post Tue Jan 21, 2003 8:22 pm
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August Spies



Joined: 09 Aug 2002
Posts: 1979
Location: D.C.
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anyway as one last point: if you asked any kind of the music historian, indierock fan, or even MTV/VH1 type who were the most important punk bands you would, while certianly getting the Clash and the Pistols, at least get Black Flag, Minor Threat, X and Dead Kennedys... hopefully also Minutemen and Wire.

All which are part of a later american scene (except wire, who were later and british)
Post Tue Jan 21, 2003 8:28 pm
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YestUrdaysMistake



Joined: 03 Jan 2003
Posts: 13
Location: santa fe, nm
hmmm....  Reply with quote  

you know the sex pistols were 1) a money-making scheme for the clothing shop SEX, and 2) the english trying to copy what they thought the americans were doing by reading our literature.....right?

i don't really see the sex pistols as a very intelligent band, and i don't think the ramones have to prove themselves as intellectuals through their lyrics. it's all about having fun, cutting loose, lashing out, being a kid.....when i interviewed john holmstrom (editor of PUNK magazine, which started in the mid 70s), we had a long talk about the roots, how "punk rock" meant "rock for the kids" and the bands playing were going back to garage rock and rock&roll with attitude, because everything on the radio was boring. social movements associated with punkrock exist, of course, but they are not the roots of punkrock and are not necessarily part of it. ii've been into punkrock since i was 12 or 13, i've been going to shows since i was around the same age. i didn't do it as a social movement or to fit in with the revolutionaries at my junior high. i did it because i was angry and it was a fun time, enough said.


name wrote:
punk died when the clash released "give em enough rope."
histories of punk that end with the pistols/clash are accurate.
the american version of the genre lacked everything that i felt punk was about. fuck all that "i wanna be sedated" bullshit. lydon, strummer, et al never released song about innane crap like that. even now, john lydon admits that sid vicious was one of the biggest dumbasses he ever knew and never understood the music as a social movement.

btw- i think lydon's "rotten" (although it mainly focuses on the pistols) is a much better exploration of the music and the time.
Post Thu Jan 30, 2003 12:47 pm
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natas sevol dog



Joined: 02 Dec 2002
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when did rudimentary peni come out? 80s? that peace punk stuff was/is a fresh change to hear sometimes
Post Thu Jan 30, 2003 1:06 pm
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Reggie



Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 5765
Location: Queens, NYC
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I've got to agree with August Spies here. I used to listen to that 80-86 hardcore stuff when I was 11 and called it "punk," but whatever you want to call it, I identify with it more than 70's British punk. I liked Sex Pistols (though I can't stand to listen to them now), I liked The Damned, and The Clash-- a few others, but that's about it.

Peep the book American Hardcore by Steven Blush, it's an oral history of the groups AUgust is talking about.
Post Thu Jan 30, 2003 1:21 pm
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Dee



Joined: 19 Jul 2002
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Dead Kennedys were punk. Period.
Punk did not die with the Clash, although certainly a punk ERA died with it. "Combat Rock," boo that. Although "Rock The Casbah" is still a fun song to rock out to.

Anyway, I like the whole Velvet Underground-Stooges-Television-Richard Hell era music better anyway...
Post Thu Jan 30, 2003 1:46 pm
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Reggie



Joined: 01 Jul 2002
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Location: Queens, NYC
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djdee2005 wrote:
Dead Kennedys were punk. Period.
Punk did not die with the Clash, although certainly a punk ERA died with it. "Combat Rock," boo that. Although "Rock The Casbah" is still a fun song to rock out to.

Anyway, I like the whole Velvet Underground-Stooges-Television-Richard Hell era music better anyway...


"Know Your Rights" is a fresh song--more lyrically than musically, doe.
Post Thu Jan 30, 2003 2:03 pm
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