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Hellen Earth
could be a girl. could be a guy.


Joined: 09 Jan 2003
Posts: 1279
Location: Fitchburg, MA
Nature of Reality?????  Reply with quote  

Anyone on here have any clue?

Just looking to start a discussion regarding the nature of reality.

Anyone knowledgable regarding quantum mechancis, and the proposition of a holographic universe?

Many great scientists have claimed the more they understood the inner workings of the world the more they believed in a reality beyond the one we inhabit now.
Post Thu Jan 09, 2003 9:08 am
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Sense?



Joined: 15 Aug 2002
Posts: 62
Location: Manchester, U.K.
Me I know!!  Reply with quote  

Hmmm yeah ill get back to you on that one. Interesting but all those big words scare me, so I gosta go.
Post Thu Jan 09, 2003 9:11 am
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PokeHerFace



Joined: 08 Jan 2003
Posts: 361
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reality's nature  Reply with quote  

I took a couple logic class once in college, and in symbolic logic the only philosophical theory that stood up to our way of disproving statements by making shit contradict itself was Descartes' "I think, therefore I am." There is no way to refute that statement. Its not like he was saying You think, therefore you are. How do we know that. All I know is I am, and that is a start for my reality. Also, i think a huge part of reality for me is that our, or at least my existense preceeds any real essence. I succomb to not knowing anything real about reality. I barely accept what i see, and am skeptical of what i hear and read. Its not to say that i don't appreciate life, I actually believe in God, but that stems from a desire to be good at heart, rather than anything that I can hold as a solid reality, or can prove for that matter. I don't think we know anything until we die.

That gets me to my next thought on reality. Besides thinking to know we exist, I would say that the one thing I can be sure of in life is that I am going to die. That is pretty much reality in a nut shell for every thing in this world-man, woman, plant, or beast.

As far as all this physics stuff that you asked about. I'd say those who have a firm grasp on quantum mechanics make up only about about 10% of the human populations grasp. However, I did take a philosophy of physics class in college that provided the most awe striking shit I've ever contemplated. I am a relativist. Meaning, i believe, like Einstein said, everything in this world is relative. What we see is 100% dictated by the speed at which light bounces off the objects and into our eye, also known as "C". So, My sitting here writing this BullShit is captured in time by a beam of light, the same beam that let me see what I was doing here. If i could somehow get to some speed faster than "C" i could go back in time, catch up to that moment, and relive this typing nonsense, only many believe it would occur backwards, or in rewind. Moreover, Einstein theorized that when someone is accellerating, or traveling faster relative to yourself time ticks slower on their watch relative to yours, no matter how miniscule the difference. Further still, some experiements were conducted on subatomic particles that come into creation and decay at an alarming rate (don't aske me what exactly, this point was made as-a-matter-of-factly in my class). These scientists made a centerfuge (something that spins around mad fast) which was the fastest they could possibly get it, the thing moving closest to the speed of light ever conducted (some fraction of "C" but still fast as hell) and placed these subatomic particles in there. While spinning in the centerfuge these particles lived NINE TIMES longer than when just sitting idle! Thats pretty incredible if you ask me. They extended the life of these particles. There are actually world clocks that were started mad long ago at the same, simultaneous, time. Some mad high up in elevation, others and ground level, others below sea level. The ones highest up (for some reason having to do with rotation of the earth and altitude that I cannot get into now, but has to do exactly with what Einstein said about relative speeds and time) are actually ticking like thousandths of a second slower than the ground level ones, and even slower still than the ones below sea level. This opens up infinite possibility about the true nature of reality. Einstein postulated though, that no moving thing can accellerate to the speed of light. His reasoning: if your on a train and the train starts, your bodies mass has an initial natural reaction to the accelleration, a resistence of sorts, that is in the form of a jerk back. Pretty obvious. But the faster the acceleration, the lager someone's negative reaction to that speed, hence the closer to the speed of light the more we resist getting there. Any mass when accelerating stretches to "C" asymptotically. However, this is where I think Einstein just gave in, was afraid of the implications he uncovered with his theories of relativity, and wanted to put an end to the idea of time travel.

Thats where we get to string theory, quantum mechanics and worm-holes. If you haven't seen Donnie Darko yet, please do, its a crazy flick. I have no clue how, but either with some internal power which has yet to be discovered, or by some quantum mechanics that I dont understand, I feel, I hope in essence, that somehow there is a way to simulate the speed of light, opening up vector portals, and by the use of worm-holes we can reach different dimensions. Many people say that a black hole has this power that can generate necessary functions to time travel at speeds greater than "C", but many also refute this theory. I think its possible, sure. Many who deny the power of black holes for these purposes look into the black hole and find something singular, something on the same plane as our universe, something that no one person could physically handle and live. However, I feel, and many smarter people who believe in string-theory, that we shouldn't look into a black hole and visualize something singulare, instead we should see that quite possibly what would lie beyond is something parallel, similar, but wholly different. Therefore, i believe the nature of reality, obviously, is uncertain, but as for our knowledge of the nature of the universe, just as the universe itself, is always expanding. Maybe one day it will be proven that parallel universe dimensions do exist, then that only opens up more uncertainty about reality. I am, and I will die, thats all i know for sure.

For more thought provoking experiments done by quantum mechanics on the issue of the nature of reality try to read up both Schrodengers Cat and Pandora's Box experiments; im sure you can get a boat load of info from a search engine like google.

I hope no one really read this, and found out the nature of my reality, which is being a loser.

peace
Post Thu Jan 09, 2003 10:24 am
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Hellen Earth
could be a girl. could be a guy.


Joined: 09 Jan 2003
Posts: 1279
Location: Fitchburg, MA
PokeHerFace-  Reply with quote  

Actually, I am pretty familiar with all the things that you mentioned. All of it I find extremely intersting. You summarized pretty well, a lot of pretty complex ideas!

Another intersting phenomenon regarding electrons, is that when they move from any point A to point B, they actually travel every possible trajectory. Meaning, they travel a straight line, go left 50ft, then to to point B, or to the Andromeda Galaxy and back to destination point B. I have no clue how they proved this, but they did....I will try and find the name of the experiment....something about slits, and barraging a wall with electrons.

I have seen Donnie Darko....it's a great flick. A lot of esoteric philosophies believe in the self as a means to open up other dimensions and travel time. Usually it's through a trance or meditative state. I don't know...I've never experienced it, but I guess it's in the realm of possiblity.
Post Thu Jan 09, 2003 10:37 am
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PokeHerFace



Joined: 08 Jan 2003
Posts: 361
Location: behind
yeah, about electrons  Reply with quote  

Yeah, electrons are crazy like that. First of all, they can bilocate, they can be completely in two different places at the same time (covalent bonds) which is crazy, i though only god and angels could do that at first. Second, like you said, when they jump to outer valences they demonstrate that the quickest way between two points is not necessarily a straight line, but a dotted path, the likes of which you explained quite well.
Post Thu Jan 09, 2003 11:19 am
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Sage Francis
Self Fighteous


Joined: 30 Jun 2002
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Hellen Earth is such a great name.

Yes, I am a yokel.
Post Thu Jan 09, 2003 11:24 am
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Hellen Earth
could be a girl. could be a guy.


Joined: 09 Jan 2003
Posts: 1279
Location: Fitchburg, MA
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What do you mean by being a yokel?
Post Thu Jan 09, 2003 11:41 am
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Sage Francis
Self Fighteous


Joined: 30 Jun 2002
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All this scientific hoowaa and you don't know what a yokel is.

Marry me, mom.
Post Thu Jan 09, 2003 11:46 am
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PokeHerFace



Joined: 08 Jan 2003
Posts: 361
Location: behind
yokel...  Reply with quote  

i think he meant a simpleton, a country bumpkin, all that shit. i believe i sensed just a bit of sarcasm. Your no yokel, Sage, a hick maybe. Ha, im kidding.
Post Thu Jan 09, 2003 11:50 am
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Couille De Gnou



Joined: 06 Nov 2002
Posts: 68
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First thing you'd better do is define "reality"...
Whoever looked up "reality" in a dictionary will read something like "that which underlies appearance" (you can check, I've been wondering about this definition for some time now); does it mean that it transcends appearance, or that they are closely linked?

Dictionaries suck sometimes.

Anyway, reality is subjective, you will spend a few thousand years on this debate I guess, until you people agree that it doesn't have only one nature.
Post Thu Jan 09, 2003 12:01 pm
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Hellen Earth
could be a girl. could be a guy.


Joined: 09 Jan 2003
Posts: 1279
Location: Fitchburg, MA
Hmmmm....  Reply with quote  

Well, what I was implying was that perhaps new discoveries in physics would shed new light on the subject which has been debated since we developed an advanced consciousness.

Speaking of that.....seeing as the mind evolves, if there was no afterlife, or reason for being, wouldn't we evolve in a manner that would prohibit us from torturing ourselves over the nature of our futile existence? There seems to be some point in evolution, like we're working towards something. If there was no point wouldn't we be moving into fragmented, chaotic systems, instead it seems like we are moving to more complex, yet organized systems. That coupled with the millions upon millions of eye witness accounts of ghosts just seems to indicate something more going on.

Anyone on here believe there is no point to life, no afterlife....etc.???? If so.....what makes you think that?
Post Thu Jan 09, 2003 12:12 pm
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Petrouchka Rasputin



Joined: 30 Jun 2002
Posts: 852
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edit: HellenEarth: Your theory assumes that evolution is "fair." My own theory is that we evolved to be able to use reason, giving us an obvious advantage over other animals, at least as far as survival is concerned. But reason gives us not only the ability to strategize, but also the ability to question the nature of existence. There may be no evolutionary advantage to that, but we could not have reason without it, and if we are to be rational beings there is the possibility we will also be pessimistic beings.

I'm not saying that's more correct than what you said, but I think it's just as valid a possibility.

Anyway. This discusses a lot of the ideas in this thread:

http://physicsweb.org/article/world/13/11/9

I've been trying to teach myself string theory, but I don't think my core knowledge of physics is strong enough for me to get very far with it. My knowledge of relativity is especially shaky, so I think I'll have to review some of the things I learned (or rather, didn't learn) in high school. General relativity makes my head hurt. heh

Because I'm bored, here's an explanation of the clock phenomenon PokeHerFace mentioned. Although I guess most people who would read this thread already understand it. Atomic clocks at higher elevations run slower than those at lower elevations because, assuming they are located at the same latitude, the radius of their movement with the earth's rotation is larger. Thus, they travel at a faster velocity, and time passes more slowly for them than for the other clocks.


Last edited by Petrouchka Rasputin on Thu Jan 09, 2003 12:23 pm; edited 3 times in total
Post Thu Jan 09, 2003 12:13 pm
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PokeHerFace



Joined: 08 Jan 2003
Posts: 361
Location: behind
essence, or reality, transcends appearance  Reply with quote  


Quote:

Anyway, reality is subjective, you will spend a few thousand years on this debate I guess, until you people agree that it doesn't have only one nature.


This is a good point. If there is anything more subjective than reality please bring it to my attention, becausei dont think there is such a topic. I agree that no one knows the reality of nature. I do believe in something greater than all of us, though, greater than all of the sciences that dictate our world. Yes, to call that something ONE thing is naive, because what the hell do i know. I agree that its pointless to try to convince someone on what exactly is undeniably real. Hell, I can't even start to tell you that you are real, i have no real proof--you are other. But I believe that the essence in life will come to us after our existense in this world, so in that sense, reality for me transcends appearance. Call me existential, but i do believe that there is one thing that underlies all of our existences, call it God if you want because I do, but that is merely my beliefs. To brood over the nature of that one thing, like I said is pointless. Who knows, that one thing that awaits us all could be, and quite possibly is, nothing at all.
Post Thu Jan 09, 2003 12:19 pm
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Petrouchka Rasputin



Joined: 30 Jun 2002
Posts: 852
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I don't think reality is subjective. Our theories on reality are subjective.

Last edited by Petrouchka Rasputin on Thu Jan 09, 2003 12:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
Post Thu Jan 09, 2003 12:25 pm
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Hellen Earth
could be a girl. could be a guy.


Joined: 09 Jan 2003
Posts: 1279
Location: Fitchburg, MA
Hmmm...  Reply with quote  

A good book on string theory is Elegeant Universe....explains it pretty well.

The whole idea of string theory seems to gel very well with the whole new age spirtiuality thingy. Meaning, the vibrations of the strings which strings theory explains as being the bases of all matter, could relate to the 'raising vibrations' often talked about in new age spirituality. it actually could account for a lot of unexplained phenomena. Fuck.....I wanna know what's going on here.
Post Thu Jan 09, 2003 12:25 pm
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