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August Spies



Joined: 09 Aug 2002
Posts: 1979
Location: D.C.
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Rex:

I also believe that both of these scientific theories are correct.
no. Creationism, by its normal definition, or its chirstian view is incompatible with the theory of evolution. If you merely mean some kind of combination of parts of the two, fine. There is no problem in believing that. But this does not make them BOTH true. They are mutually exclusive.

Now here is the kicker for all of you logical scientific types if there is no God then there is no after life. If there is a God there is an after life. So the only logical decision here is to believe in God. Your only chance of an after life is to believe in God.

this is your "logic"? give me a break.
Merely believing in god will not produce an afterlife from thin air. So it seems your claim is that believing in god is going to increase the chance of an afterlife (clearly false) or increase the chance of your getting into a heaven. Well, even if we ignore the fact that there are a thousand religions with a thousand heavens (you can't present the question the way you do, which is "god" or "no-god". There are a million variations on theism), what logical reason is their to believe a God would let you into heaven for believing in him?

I see none. Logically, a God/gods would either let everyone into heaven... IE that is just where you go when you die, or a God/gods would only let the morally good people in. Clearly your moral goodness has no relation to your whorshiping X, Y or Z god/gods. Why would a god want your belief? to satisfy some kind of ego problem? Why would a god have these desires if he was omnipotent? answer: he would not.

In fact, more likely than not an omnipotent god would NOT ACT at all. If god is all powerful he satisfies ANY desire immediatly. He has no desires. He does not think (he knows everything instantly, there is no thought process). As a non-thinking, non-desiring god he would not act on anything. Things only act if they have desires or needs.
Post Sun Dec 29, 2002 5:52 pm
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Varick_Pyr



Joined: 06 Jul 2002
Posts: 330
Location: Reading, PA
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August Spies wrote:

Fascism, christianity, the existence of your mother, cable modems etc... none of those can be 100% proven to exist.


well... that's a belief of mine, but i dont want to get into THAT. i see what you're saying, though.
Post Sun Dec 29, 2002 5:54 pm
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Soul Khansenses



Joined: 12 Aug 2002
Posts: 2110
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I've reconciled my belief in a higher power with the cosmological approach compounded with the assumption that at some point, there was just an initiating force spontaneously generated.
Post Sun Dec 29, 2002 7:00 pm
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Rex



Joined: 27 Dec 2002
Posts: 30
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August Spies

I donít think we are as far off from the same idea as you think.

I do not believe in Creationism the way that the Church portrays it. There is too much fossil record of our common threads with primates. We are not descended from primates but the ones living today are, are distant relatives. The ďmissing linkĒ has been found, there is a line of fossils that brings us back to ancient primates.

On your idea of a Thousand religions; you are right ever since Neanderthrolís (not even are species) started putting flowers on the graves of there dead a type of religion has existed for every human society. Thousands and thousands of religions. But if you take a closer look at those religions you will notice something; they all say the same thing. They all set rules that guide the community. Every religion has their own little set of Golden Rules. Some people would say that religion is just Social Darwinism giving rules and structure to a society, with out these rules that society would not contend well enough with the group next door and end up dieing out. But if you look closely enough you will find a God not that much different then the one we have.

Question for thought, Iím donít even know if it is relevant to the conversation but it might me?????

In the whole history of the Universe and the whole future what are the chances that we would be alive right now??? Time is infinite; what are the chances that are little 75 year life spans would put us here now at the present time. The chances are astronomical. You could win Power Ball a million times before you got that lucky. What are the chances???? How is it that we are here???
Post Mon Dec 30, 2002 9:08 am
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Sage Francis
Self Fighteous


Joined: 30 Jun 2002
Posts: 21622
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in more trivial news, pigs are actually some of the cleanest animals on Earth. Unless you cage them into a small space where they are forced to walk around in their own shit, and roll in mud in order to save their skin from the blazing sun.

I find it hilarious when people talk about how horrible it is to eat pork, but all the other meat is ok. Gimme a fucking break.

I am a man of rationality. People who are not supporters of rationality are my only true enemies. I believe this. Call me crazy.

Carry on...I like this conversation.
Post Mon Dec 30, 2002 10:18 am
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MessiahCarey



Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 10924
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Sage Francis wrote:
People who are not supporters of rationality are my only true enemies. I believe this. Call me crazy.


Rationally speaking...

Nobody knows if God exists (one way or the other). Creationism assumes a creator...thus it is a flawed theory at its onset. One that must assume that which it tries to prove...

Evolution is a less flawed theory, yet lacks a good deal of proof (no transitional bone structures have yet to be discovered according to the latest shit I've read).

Perhaps a combination of both is a possibility...but it's safe to assume that either theory will have many revisions before they become established as fact. And for this to happen, the religious and scientific communities are going to have to get over themselves.

Peace,
Shane
Post Mon Dec 30, 2002 10:36 am
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Sage Francis
Self Fighteous


Joined: 30 Jun 2002
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I can accept that
Post Mon Dec 30, 2002 10:56 am
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amo1ne



Joined: 19 Jul 2002
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Location: MTL514CANADA
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check this thread from the DefJux forums...

http://www.defjukies.com/djxforums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1483&highlight=aliens

It's 7 pages long and I don't feel like rewriting all my views but I have some strong theories and beliefs into all of this..
Post Mon Dec 30, 2002 11:00 am
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apeofdeath
FIRE BREATHING DRAG QUEEN


Joined: 30 Sep 2002
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I think that basically any theory that can be possibly conceived by humans will have one major flaw: how to deal with what happened BEFORE the big bang (or when God created the universe.) I dont think humans will be able to deal with this dilemma in the foreseeable future.
Post Mon Dec 30, 2002 12:18 pm
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Rex



Joined: 27 Dec 2002
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Quote:

Evolution is a less flawed theory, yet lacks a good deal of proof (no transitional bone structures have yet to be discovered according to the latest shit I've read


You can find stuff out there that say's anything. In this case there is a clear record of transitional bone structrures. There are still some gaps and some unknowns (unknowns like did this bone lead to us or is it an off shot, but in the same family) but a near enouph bone history is out there.
Post Mon Dec 30, 2002 12:50 pm
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MessiahCarey



Joined: 01 Jul 2002
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True enough.

The reality of evolution wouldn't exactly exclude the possibility of creation would it?

Peace,
Shane
Post Mon Dec 30, 2002 1:30 pm
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August Spies



Joined: 09 Aug 2002
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Rex:

I have a sneeking suspicion you know very little about the worlds religions.

But if you take a closer look at those religions you will notice something; they all say the same thing.

No one could honestly study Buddhism, Hindduism, Christianity and Islam and say they are saying the same thing. THis is just to mention the big ones nowadays.

here is the deal rex: religions accomplish two things. They help secure power for the rulers (less relevant today certainly) and they helped to make a workable society. Since religions started out as rules of law they DO have some similar themes in them. For instance about every religions says you shouldn't kill other people in your group. This really proves little except people founding religoins were smart enough to realize you need that rule for society to be stable.

Beyond comparisons like that, religions are vastly different. A good analogy woudl be political theories. Religions are at least as different from each other as Political views. And political views, like religious views, do often have similar things to say in essence.

But would you REALLY claim Anarchism, Fascism and Capitalism are "really just the same thing deep down"?


Quote:

Every religion has their own little set of Golden Rules.


what is this trying to prove? as YOU YOURSELF NOTE they have their OWN sets. They don't all have the same rules. Oh but they do have rules... well I guess they are all teh same, just like eveyr political theory.


Quote:

But if you look closely enough you will find a God not that much different then the one we have.


YES you really will. And often you will find no "God" but multiple gods.


Quote:

The chances are astronomical. You could win Power Ball a million times before you got that lucky. What are the chances????


No offense Rex but I have always thought this was by far, by far, the stupidest thing creationists say to counter evolution. I know where you are going with this "oh the chance of man being here is x to the blah blah blah", clearly people are missing the main point of evolutionary theory which is that things are NOT JUST CHANCE. Species evolved to fit their enviorment. Looking at it that way chances are pretty darn good a sparrowlike creature or a dolphinlike creature would exist.

A better question might be: why are there no creatures with parts that dont' make sense evolutionary but make sense in practice? For example: evolution moves in steps. Ther is no practicle step between a leg and a wheel. A wheel is not found in nature. But a wheel is very practicle, god could easily make animals whith wheels. why aren't there things like this in nature?
Post Mon Dec 30, 2002 2:09 pm
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August Spies



Joined: 09 Aug 2002
Posts: 1979
Location: D.C.
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The reality of evolution wouldn't exactly exclude the possibility of creation would it?

no it wouldn't in some abstract sense. I agree with what you are saying, we can't know either way (I am a minister in the Universal Church Triumphant of the Apathetic Agnostics)

it does destroy all normal strains of creationist thought (all ones tied to major religions (aka cults) that is)
Post Mon Dec 30, 2002 2:11 pm
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amo1ne



Joined: 19 Jul 2002
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http://www.defjukies.com/djxforums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1483&highlight=aliens
Post Mon Dec 30, 2002 2:23 pm
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natas sevol dog



Joined: 02 Dec 2002
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I think that religion(or faith or whatever else you think of it as) is just a way to try to explain what we dont know, I believe that our enegries keep going after our bodies are done with and that is our true form which someday we may become without the nuisance of a material form. and when your body does die your enegry become a part of the universal consciecness, where everything that has ever existed and will ever exist resides. i dunno, its kinda hard to explain what I believe but i tried my best.

"In the whole history of the Universe and the whole future what are the chances that we would be alive right now??? Time is infinite; what are the chances that are little 75 year life spans would put us here now at the present time. The chances are astronomical. You could win Power Ball a million times before you got that lucky. What are the chances???? How is it that we are here???"

how do you know we are here? this could all be an imaginary dreamscape(i dunno how else to put it) and you may be the only true one and the rest of us are created out of your unconscience to fill a void. i dont believe this really but you never know
Post Mon Dec 30, 2002 8:51 pm
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