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Petrouchka Rasputin



Joined: 30 Jun 2002
Posts: 852
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DJDee, you're still missing the point Shane has made.
Post Tue Dec 03, 2002 12:26 am
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Dee



Joined: 19 Jul 2002
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I don't believe I'm missing it at all.


Please, give me the point that I'm missing.
Post Tue Dec 03, 2002 12:47 am
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Reggie



Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 5765
Location: Queens, NYC
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It's very simple, djdee. You believe that by limiting access to guns, we can make the world safer or at least decrease the number of deaths caused by gunfire. Shane disagrees, or at least believes that the number of deaths decreased would be not significant or significant enough to warrant such a severe curtailing of liberty. The end.
Post Tue Dec 03, 2002 7:34 am
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Dee



Joined: 19 Jul 2002
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So how am I missing his point? I know what we're arguing about....and I definitely disagree. I think that the number of deaths is severe enough that we need to do something to control access to guns.
Post Tue Dec 03, 2002 9:08 am
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Petrouchka Rasputin



Joined: 30 Jun 2002
Posts: 852
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Yes.

Guns don't kill people, people kill people.

Let's pretend that the elimination of guns would not be so impossible as the elimination of drugs. Even if guns were criminalized and if the government managed to uphold that law (at great cost), you'd just see an increase in the number of killings by other means. As Shane said, people kill for reasons, and unless you address the reasons why they kill, they will continue to kill, even if deprived of their more "effective" weapons. You've already disagreed with the reason he gave. But if Canada does have so much less gun crime - why is that so? It isn't gun control. Doesn't that suggest to you that there might be a way to curb shootings other than with gun control?

Maybe this is an unfair analogy, but - what would you think of a doctor who treats his patients' symptoms rather than the underlying condition? That's what gun control does. You can give someone drugs to ease their pain, but their cancer will still be gradually killing them.

I'm not going to add anything else to this, however. Shane has already said everything I wish to say on the matter.
Post Tue Dec 03, 2002 9:09 am
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Reggie



Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 5765
Location: Queens, NYC
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djdee2005 wrote:
So how am I missing his point? I know what we're arguing about....and I definitely disagree. I think that the number of deaths is severe enough that we need to do something to control access to guns.


Everyone understands that you feel this way. Shane is saying that limiting access to legal guns will not have a significant impact on deaths caused by guns, or at the very least the loss of part of our second amendment right does not warrant the potential lives saved by limiting access to guns. I am not saying you are right and he is wrong or viced versa, I am just putting this out there to clear up any (apparent) confusion.
Post Tue Dec 03, 2002 9:16 am
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Reggie



Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 5765
Location: Queens, NYC
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More pointedly, you are saying that limiting access to guns WILL result in a decrease in violent deaths, that it is a given. Shane is saying that this is not necessarily so.
Post Tue Dec 03, 2002 9:21 am
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Dee



Joined: 19 Jul 2002
Posts: 7872
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Petrouchka Rasputin wrote:
Yes.

Guns don't kill people, people kill people.

Let's pretend that the elimination of guns would not be so impossible as the elimination of drugs. Even if guns were criminalized and if the government managed to uphold that law (at great cost), you'd just see an increase in the number of killings by other means. As Shane said, people kill for reasons, and unless you address the reasons why they kill, they will continue to kill, even if deprived of their more "effective" weapons. You've already disagreed with the reason he gave. But if Canada does have so much less gun crime - why is that so? It isn't gun control. Doesn't that suggest to you that there might be a way to curb shootings other than with gun control?

Maybe this is an unfair analogy, but - what would you think of a doctor who treats his patients' symptoms rather than the underlying condition? That's what gun control does. You can give someone drugs to ease their pain, but their cancer will still be gradually killing them.

I'm not going to add anything else to this, however. Shane has already said everything I wish to say on the matter.



Again, I'm not saying that gun control will solve the problem, which people seem to think I'm saying. Gun control is a band aid, but if it saves lives, I believe its worth it.

And the illegelization of guns (which again, the total illegalization of which I am NOT in favor of) would create more of a black market trade in it...but it wouldn't even be comprable to the drug trade. For one thing, the United States is the biggest source of guns in this hemisphere. Its not like the columbians would be sending us guns with coke hid inside them. An underground gun trade would be a LOT different from an underground drug trade.
Post Tue Dec 03, 2002 9:26 am
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Petrouchka Rasputin



Joined: 30 Jun 2002
Posts: 852
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Ah. Sorry, I forgot for a minute what gun control is. But I still think it's impractical. You can force people to register their guns, but if someone knows their gun is likely to be used in a killing, they won't register it. Only those with nothing to hide will participate. It would cost a ridiculous amount of money to even begin to enforce the policy, the main effect of which would be simply to force the trade of guns into the black market.


And sure, the US is the world's largest producer of guns, but that doesn't mean that there aren't insane numbers of guns made in other countries. I'm sure you would start to see a flow of guns into the US if they became hard to obtain from sources inside the country. Whatever. It's a little senseless debating this, since I brought up criminalization only by accident.

Now I really will shut up. I have studying to do.
Post Tue Dec 03, 2002 9:41 am
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Dee



Joined: 19 Jul 2002
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I don't see how a "ridiculous amount of money" should be an obstruction.

We make people register cars, and enforce it. Why on earth wouldn't we do the same with guns!?
Post Tue Dec 03, 2002 10:20 am
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sliquid



Joined: 30 Oct 2002
Posts: 173
Location: Kansass City
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I like Chris Rocks idea. Make the bullets cost more.
Post Wed Dec 04, 2002 8:26 am
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MessiahCarey



Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 10924
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djdee2005 wrote:
We make people register cars, and enforce it. Why on earth wouldn't we do the same with guns!?


<sigh>

How about health care? We gonna cut that to pay for extra gun control? I wonder how many people will die then as a result...more or less than 11,000? You can't even MEASURE that.

How about welfare? Ax that program in order to pay for gun control right? Make the social workers who are already underpaid (and therefore have no desire to work hard) have to deal with more homeless children, mothers and fathers?

WHERE DOES THE MONEY COME FROM?!?

In other words - even if you were to actually enact more strict forms of gun control (which I still maintain won't lower the murder rate considerably at all) you would have to fund the beaurocracy that would make it happen. Department of Homeland "Defense", Welfare, Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, etc...this shit starts to add up and there isn't enough money (and yeah, it's for stupid reasons...but I'm speaking on reality here regardless of cause). Right now, at least, asking for extra money for agencies and laws regarding gun control is PROBABLY (note my lack of a definate, none of this stuff is definite) going to harm more people than it helps. The money just isn't there, and I know that you know that "our" government can't just print it (unless it's for war, of course...stop that, then worry about gun control if you really think that infringing on other people's privacy is okay).

There are many countries with far less stringent gun policies than America that have FAR fewer murders per capita - how about THAT statistic? This is where Michael Moore (from what I've heard about the movie, haven't seen it) clouded facts with numbers (just as I would be doing if I though the first sentence of this paragraph proved a fucking thing)...of course he proved another important point in the process and that certainly shouldn't be ignored...but the bottom line is that there is little to no correlation between gun laws and murder rates on a long term basis - and even that is going to be different based on the culture of the particular nation. Even if ALL the statistics DID prove that the murder rate would go down with extra gun control (they don't), the statistic would be put through the cultural ringer once it got here to America.

None of this, obviously, changes where I stand - but it's a more practical argument against gun control than the ideological one that I presented before.

Peace,
Shane
Post Wed Dec 04, 2002 8:59 am
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Dee



Joined: 19 Jul 2002
Posts: 7872
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Oh please. You want to afford it? OK, build one less missile. Our defense budget takes up a massive portion of our tax money, and I certainly don't want to eliminate welfare for gun control....don't try to make ME look like the asshole here...

And second, moore didn't "cloud facts" at all....he tended to suggest that the source of the problem WAS cultural, and he barely mentioned gun control laws at all.
And I ALREADY SAID that I KNOW the problem isn't access to guns, because there are other countries with easier access that have fewer murders. I am not blaming guns for the murders. But goddammit, if our culture is fucked up, I want some fucking laws in place to protect fucked up people from having access to guns.
Its a band-aid, I know. But a band-aid is better than nothing.
Post Wed Dec 04, 2002 9:04 am
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sliquid



Joined: 30 Oct 2002
Posts: 173
Location: Kansass City
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djdee2005 wrote:
. But goddammit, if our culture is fucked up, I want some fucking laws in place to protect fucked up people from having access to guns.
Its a band-aid, I know. But a band-aid is better than nothing.


I think this sums up why our society is fucked up. Moores movie backs it up as well. What you just said states that you are scared. His movie suggests that fear is the underlying cause to our fucked up society. Years of fear have turned us into what we are. The whole reason we have guns is because we were scared of something. Now we are scared of guns. Go figure.
Post Wed Dec 04, 2002 2:13 pm
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Dee



Joined: 19 Jul 2002
Posts: 7872
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That wasn't the whole point of Moore's movie, but rather the whole point of the little movie done by the guys from South Park that Moore showed in the middle of his movie...

But regardless, I think you've gotten us into circular thinking here. People who think that we should have guns to protect ourselves from others are the ones afriad...I'm not advocating arming everyone because I'm scared, I'm suggesting that maybe if we didn't have a REASON to be afraid of guns, their would be much less of a problem.
The NRA are the ones that think everyone would be safer with a gun. I don't own a gun, nor do I want to. If the government decides to become tyranical, my little 9mm under my pillow isn't going to protect me.
Post Wed Dec 04, 2002 2:20 pm
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