Profile
Search
Register
Log in
wow Americans are stupid... and so is the whole world!
View previous topic | View next topic >

Post new topic Reply to topic
Strange Famous Forum > Social stuff. Political stuff. KNOWMORE

Author Message
August Spies



Joined: 09 Aug 2002
Posts: 1979
Location: D.C.
 Reply with quote  


Quote:

As far as [....]soon as communism left--then the country fragmented and fell into dissarray.


I have no idea what your talking about here. You said that America has some special quality, due to some kind of diversity, that no other country has. I responded saying other countries are just as diverse if not more. But now you are saying its because they don't have the resources?

I mean... weren't the UK and France superpowers for a long fucking time?

and because of that it comes off as hipster US bashing
I haven't been bashign america in this thread, if you read closely what I say. Anything negative I say about america is always specific... for instance I said America has been bad with its military and named a bunch of examples.

if you think that is hipster bashing... well whatever.

NOTE: please note that virtually everything ive said is bad about america ive said most countires would act the same in our situation... IE power curropts.

Question for you:
If you think America requires some special good quality to make it a super power could you please explain to me why the USSR was the second super power for a substantial period of time. What was so great about it?


Last edited by August Spies on Sun Nov 24, 2002 3:23 am; edited 1 time in total
Post Sun Nov 24, 2002 2:39 am
 View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address
August Spies



Joined: 09 Aug 2002
Posts: 1979
Location: D.C.
 Reply with quote  

califunky

"that being said i dont think you are one to talk about an uniformed worldview"
Hey I enjoy discussing stuff like this so... fair enough im not pretending to know everything. I just like to argue:


Quote:

please tell me the ccountries that are much more diverse than us. more specifically please tell me the countries with populations in excess of 250 million that are more diverse than us...(cause there are bigger countries geographically, like china, india, russia...but those countries all have VERY homgenous populations)


well his claim was that no country was diverse as us. I think this is false. To take an example: Italy. Italy has radically different halves. More so than the U.S. and for similar reasons (agricultural vs. industrial, etc...) On top of this, cities in italy are radically different. On a basic level the dialects are so distinct that an Italian can tell what city you are from within a short time of speaking to you. And I mean very different, not like a "southern" accent. On a larger level those areas have much greater cultural differences than the United States... from what I can tell.

As for bigger countries... I really dont' know what you are talking about. India is homogenous? Honestly this is the first time ive even heard this claim. Ive always heard of it as one of the most diverse countries in the world. in fact it is so diverse that people thought Republic style democracy would not work there.

Again, on a basic level, the differences between Muslims, Hindis and Sihks (spelling?) is, imo, much more pronounced than American cultural distinctions.


Quote:

popular democracy

we don't have a democracy. We have a Republic system. Big difference. Anyways, by virtually all accounts of the time the new United States was basically the same as Englands system at the time (remember we rebelled because the colonies were not being included in the system, not because the system was bad)

Anyways my point was the United Sates is not unique in things like that. Even if it had done things first, whatever. All of europe has similar systems so why would that make us special?

but we still produced far more inventions and innovations with a much smaller population.
we have a smaller population than European countires? Im not really sure how to argue with you guys here seeing as no one is naming anything. What are all the things the United States invented? (I think we invented plenty but I think Europe in the same time period has invented just as much)

no italy, england, france, and germany are not anywhere near as self suffiecient as we are,

..... I did not say they were. I said they are as diverse.

basically every other nation on this planet (especially in the Old World) is fixated around some sort of ethnic identity.

this may be true... and one one side I think its a good thing. IN theory and shit its a great thing. Being inclusive and open. However, in practice it seems to me we are bascially like any western european country but without any real culture. This is probably more because we are a new country than because we lack ethnic identity though.

because of that america continually feeds off new stimuli, it is never stagnant...

wait this is the same country that is making James bond 18 and Lethel Weapon 5 right :wink:

we live in an era shaped by edge culture,
Now this is true. We do have edge culture but this is in many ways COUNTER culture. The great culture america has created, imo, is anti-US culture in a sense. And I don't mean jsut in an overtly political way. Hip hop, hippies, punks, beats etc... These cultures thrive and are good by being opposed to American Culture values.

what is difficult is understanding and accepting that countering this is an ethos of compassion, adventure, ingenuity and determination which DOES make us special, which IS the origin of our power.

No offense but this just sounds like shit out of a 6th grade U.S. Goverment textbook. Highly idealized and abstracted view of the United States.
The United States is a country of One-Demensonal Men as far as I can tell. We are ruthless capitalists. We really do take down everything than stands in the way of our profits. Maybe this makes us "adventures" or "deteremed". I dunno.

As for us being compassionate... what? Compared to comparable countries in the same time period... what?! America has commited genocide that would make Hitler proud, crushed resistance in a way that would make Stalin proud, had slavery longer than most other countries, kept races segregated longer than virtually anyone else... how can you call this country compassionate?

I mean I full realize most americans are not like this. I fully realize most americans have lots of compassion. But so do most Frenchmen, or Nigerians, or Indians, or any other country. So what do you mean by calling us compassionate?
Post Sun Nov 24, 2002 2:59 am
 View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address
August Spies



Joined: 09 Aug 2002
Posts: 1979
Location: D.C.
 Reply with quote  

Just to clarify:

I think everyone knows what I mean, but to be sure. When I talk about American diversity I mean diversity on a REAL level. Im not talking about the percentage of protestants and catholics or how many types of ethnic minorities we have. Im talking about REAL distinctions in ways of life. It is one of the drawbacks of capitalism and republics that people get homoginzed (as Troqueville pointed out). And its similar in a lot of countries. But the homoginization in america seems disturbing.

Someone pointed out how we accept anyone to come into this country. Yes, this is true, but only on a shallow level. Yeah we will let in any skin color. But do we really tolerate different cultures and ways of life? Im not so sure. Hispanics have been complaining for years about how we crush their culture. Americanization. Oddly enough, ive always heard pro-americans use this as a pro. That we are able to make everyone the same.

I mean just look at our political system. The puny difference between the republicans and democrats is astounding if you compare it to any other first world republic.

Anyways I hope you guys don't take this all personally. I think this is an interesting subject and such, and I like discussing it. im not on some "hipster anti-american" rant or anything.
Post Sun Nov 24, 2002 3:16 am
 View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address
duke_city



Joined: 05 Jul 2002
Posts: 3208
Location: San Diego,CA
 Reply with quote  

August Spies wrote:
Just to clarify:

Someone pointed out how we accept anyone to come into this country. Yes, this is true, but only on a shallow level. Yeah we will let in any skin color. But do we really tolerate different cultures and ways of life? Im not so sure. Hispanics have been complaining for years about how we crush their culture. Americanization. Oddly enough, ive always heard pro-americans use this as a pro. That we are able to make everyone the same.



Living in DC I can see why you would think something like what you typed above. Hispanics getting their culture crushed? where? In states like Texas, California, and all of the southwest Hispanics outnumber every single other demographic of people. Every sign I see in New York City, or any city in California and Texas is in Spanish sometimes before english.

Latin American culture transcends all the white/black racial barriars that exist in most societies and the US has a tremendous amount of it with no chance of slowing down. In my opinion this is an indication of the way things will be in the future in the US. A lot of the people from Mexico and Central America are doing jobs that born US citizens will not do. In many areas of industry they are the backbone of the economy right now. Its only a matter of time before Hispanic people rise to power in the US political system and start the ball rolling even faster. Some of this is already happening.

We do have somethig very special and unique in the US so much so though that someone like you and many others like you (Americans) can't see it yet.

Brian
Post Sun Nov 24, 2002 3:35 am
 View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
califunky



Joined: 06 Jul 2002
Posts: 225
Location: Japan
this is just going to keep getting more ridiculous...  Reply with quote  

all of the arugments and couterarguments are making for some ridiulous length posts, so i will try (and fail) to be less wordy...


Quote:

When I talk about American diversity I mean diversity on a REAL level. Im not talking about the percentage of protestants and catholics or how many types of ethnic minorities we have. Im talking about REAL distinctions in ways of life.


i dont agree with you here. coming froma place like LA i have been to friends homes where the mother tongue is farsi, tagalog, korean, spanish, hebrew and thai, and that was just last year...your defination of diversity here seems to mean that because we all work similar jobs and drive similar cars and watch tv we are all the same. but from experiances my friends' homes and families it is an unreal experiance how much DIVERSITY of culture, faith, language, beliefs and perspectives can be found in a modern american city (especially when contrasted with the antithesis of that, japan, where i am the only diversity for miles)...so help me deifne ways of life...do you mean like farmers, ranchers, fisherman, (pastoral) vs business, mcdonalds etc (urban) ? if that is your definition we have a lot of that kind of diversity too. What are the REAL distinctions in ways of life.

aside from that, i think a wide variety of ethnic and religious peoples is a much more important form of diversity than those real distinctions because it provides a nearly unlimited source of different perspectives and attitudes. i think this is the heart of edge culture. Yes, alot of the edge culture since the 60s has focused on a distinct strain of anti-americanism but the beautiful thing about this is that edge culture flows out to the mainstream. looking at art as an example- rap, punk, jazz, -these are all mainstream now and where initially dangerous edge forms. [side rant- i think the production, the creativity of edge culture has alot to do with our sacred minorites being marginalized by the mainstream and responding to it, creating a counterculture which ironically in the end becomes mainstream]
i think that not only do we accpet differences, we embrace them or we at least try to incorporate what suits us (which is a crap way to look at it)





Quote:

Italy has radically different halves


big woop. they still all speak some form of italian. they are still almost entirely caucasion (and sicilian ;) it is still rare to find a large percentage of people who dont speak italian as their native tongue. explain to me how a farmer from tuscany and bootmaker in rome can possible bring the same diversity to the table that a muslim pakistani storeowner and a white catholic fisherman can.

as far as india goes-yes they are very diverse in that that they have 3 dominant ethno/religious types. But That is Basically It. aside from those three groups there is almost no other diversity. if i shot a spitwad in my highschool gym class i would have hit more diversity than that (and i grew up in Bumfuck, Amerika)


Quote:

United States was basically the same as Englands system at the time


basically the same but not the same...englands form was more tradition bound and less flexible. but yeah, good point we do like in a republican form of government, but the extent of freedoms and participation were still unprecedented at their inception.

Population Europe 550-600 million. Pop US 300 million (this disparity used to be much larger) and as a whole, all of Europe combined almost matched the rate of american invention and innovation during that period. things we invented- start with Thomas Edison, move to the televsion, basically every process for the assembly and almost all of them for mass production, and the Nuclear Bomb just for good measure...you want a list? fuck man check out the us patent office website and links to similar worldwide institutions.


Quote:

wait this is the same country that is making James bond 18 and Lethel Weapon 5 right :wink:


LMFAO

i realized my biggest mistake in that entire statement was the inclusion of the word compassionate. it made me sounds like a fucking bumpkin (or slack-jawed man, I have a Trophy!) yeah, i meant that the american people are compassionate, but every one else is too (except for parisians- i like the french for the most part, but parisians are just fucking frogs, this is the only group i am bigotted towards, they are just a bunch of fucking assholes)

the second biggest mistake (i meant to do it, i just forgot) was the failure to acknowledge the Native American genocide, it is something i am normally very sensitive to. we are a nation founded on the backs of murderers and slavers who prophesed freedom, so long as it meant that they were on top. we have hailed capitalism and consumerism as the end all be all and it is our deification of these things which also makes us powerful. we crush all those who stand before us, and our wallets. this makes us an international bully (just like france and england before us) but unlike those places it makes america an intriguing, exciting and wonderful place to live because the "american dream" is still alive and well, (cliched as that may sound, but fuck if i havent seen it happen with my own eyes) unfortunately right now, that dream also includes fucking the rest of the world over to make our pad all nifty and cool.

i dont have a point in any of this. we are special. we are the hegemon. we were already close to that status prior to WWI and were definately so afterwards (yes the period of American Hegemony is usually defined as 1914 to present) the military might came second, the economic might came first, as the result of many many complex factors of which a special inclination to invention, innovation, adventure and the embrace of the new played a very significant part.

peace

c
Post Sun Nov 24, 2002 5:45 am
 View user's profile Send private message
August Spies



Joined: 09 Aug 2002
Posts: 1979
Location: D.C.
 Reply with quote  

so much so though that someone like you and many others like you (Americans) can't see it yet.

you realize this isn't actually saying anything. Here ill give it a try: you guys are so blinded by patriotism you are making up stuff to believe you belong to special country... (notice how niether of those statements gets us anywhere.

Califunky:


Quote:

but from experiances my friends' homes and families it is an unreal experiance how much DIVERSITY of culture, faith, language, beliefs and perspectives can be found in a modern american city


I go to one of the most diverse schools in one of the most diverse states. My best friends are Lebanese, Vietnamese, Hungarian, jewish, Dominican, Ecuadorian and Chinese. Seriously. Now these friends, and all my other foriegn friends, are totally americanized. There is no real diversity here except on a COSMETIC LEVEL. Yes, they all speak different langauges. Yes they come from different cultures. But They all act the same they are more homoginized than I would have thought possible before coming here to D.C.

What I mean is they all have the same culture. Of course on some level they retain their parents culture (but thats not saying anything). These people all have the same beliefs, same pass times, same favorite tv shows, same clothes, same cell phones, same musical tastes etc... etc... Of course obviously there are a ton of differences between them, but not any more different than it would be taking a sample group from any country/place.

form of diversity than those real distinctions because it provides a nearly unlimited source of different perspectives and attitudes.

well this is exaclty what I haven't found. and my school really is incredibly diverse on an ethnic/racial/religious level.

looking at art as an example- rap, punk, jazz, -these are all mainstream now and where initially dangerous edge forms.

well we DEFINITLY have different points of view here. Radically. In fact id point to those as the perfect exampel of the shallowness of american culture. American culture (or the commercial mainstream culture) KILLS edge culture when it comes in contact with it. Murders it. Everything that was good and brilliant about punk rock died when it became mainstream. Grunge (which was punk until mainstream coined a new name) was killed. Hip hop was killed.

I mean hip hop and punk rock live on as edge cultures, but their commercial componentes are dead. Having actively been involved in serveral "edge cultures" I think I have a fair few of this. In the mainstream stuff may live on as music but not as culture. or not as the culture it was.

As for your comments on italy and india: I guess we are just on different pages here. If you want to argue America has a more cosmetically diverse population: fine, ill agree to that. but it is of course cosmetic. (Race/ethnicity/creed can of course trancend cosmeticness and be real diversity but it does not mean that PER SE)


Quote:

but the extent of freedoms and participation were still unprecedented at their inception.

Sorry, not really. England was more free than we were. You should not look at americas past through what it promised. What was america when it started? A country where rich white protestant males ran everything. Women could not vote. Blacks were slaves. Indians were murdered and shipped out west. non-protestants were repressed. Hell even ehtnic white minorities were repressed. Participation in politics was pretty low due to our racist/sexist laws.

yes the period of American Hegemony is usually defined as 1914 to present) every class ive taken or book ive read has defined it since after WWII.

EDIT: I will say that I think americas youth culture, or "edge culture", is incredibly diverse. And the best thing going for america. However, I do still believe these are "anti-american" in a sense. Likewise I recognize that, say mexicans that come over give us diversity in the sense that they bring their own culture. However, from what I can tell this culture is merely for them. It is not a part of american culture per se. nevermind its too early in the morning.

EDIT: even IF I was going to agree that cosmetic divesity = real diversity how would that make america that different. I mean really? Take anotehr world power like France. They have substantial african, muslism/north african and roma minorities. As well as obviously minorities from every country in eruope. It has muslisms, catholics, protestants. Sure it may not be AS diverse ethnically as America, but is america so much more diverse that it would be special?
Post Sun Nov 24, 2002 12:23 pm
 View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address
darianluv



Joined: 08 Oct 2002
Posts: 350
 Reply with quote  

I think I read that the USA is self sufficient? not really, We depend A LOT on other countries, for a long time just about every year we spend more money than what we have (i think its called the national debt or something) but if it came down to it we wouldn't be able to support ourselves.

And early settlers killed most native americans just by spreading disease, I think we killed off a crazy amount like 95% or something by smallpox. A great advantage to early settlers and conquerers.

We make sure there are no unfriendly neighbors in any of the americas, that and through luck we've managed to stay a world power, but I'm not sure how much longer that will really last.
Post Sun Nov 24, 2002 1:25 pm
 View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail
August Spies



Joined: 09 Aug 2002
Posts: 1979
Location: D.C.
 Reply with quote  

just as a note to what Darian said:
We did officially spread diseases amongst the indians, not just by accident. We woudl sell blankets from small pox vicitms to them and such. Hmm... biological warfare, maybe there is something america invented :wink:
Post Sun Nov 24, 2002 1:34 pm
 View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address
Dee



Joined: 19 Jul 2002
Posts: 7872
 Reply with quote  

Don't forget about us introducing alcohol to the native americans that survived.
Post Sun Nov 24, 2002 1:45 pm
 View user's profile Send private message
futuristxen



Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 19374
Location: Tighten Your Bible Belt
 Reply with quote  

dallasbboy: I think you pointed out the reason that america is not as doomed as people want to think. We've always had influxes of immigrants to come in and kick this countries ass; and I think Latin Americans are the next group to do it.

August-when you talk about REAL diffrences, I don't really understand what you are saying here--if it's not culture--then what is it? People come over here to be a part of america--it would seem like this participation would inherently make them more american, or whatever country they were in. I think the only way you can talk about diversity is in terms of religion/ethinicity/ and so on.

And also, how much of the US have you seen? This is a question just as important as how much of the world I've seen; because I get the impression that you are basing your views of america on one area where you live. Which is fine and all, but the US does have a decided diffrence regionally. (Don't take this question personal either--none of this is personal at all, it's just a discussion--shouldn't have to say that, but some people get crazy when they are trying to seem right)

As far as your question for me. The reason the USSR was a second superpower was a lot the same reason I gave for the US being the first superpower--A diverse land rich with Natural Resources combined with organization that allowed a level of self-suffieciency that most countries can't enjoy(either because of lack of organization/or lack of resources).
Post Sun Nov 24, 2002 2:07 pm
 View user's profile Send private message AIM Address MSN Messenger
August Spies



Joined: 09 Aug 2002
Posts: 1979
Location: D.C.
 Reply with quote  

well if you want to say its a large area and resources that make america a superpower say that, dont' say its a magical intangible quality. Don't say there is something "special" about the U.S. if you jsut mean its got resources. (your explanation, it seems to me, fails to show how past powers were powers though)

The real differences im talking about IS culture (and also similar things like ways of life, attitudes). All the people I know from all these different cultural backgrounds essentially have the same culture as far as I can tell. There is a greater difference, imho, between myself (lets say a punk) and a hip hop kid than between my Dominican and Vietnamese friend (for instance). I am sure you can agree than merely having darker skin or a different hair color does not, in itself, make you different culturally.

I grew up in the rural south (Virginia) and now I live in an urban more northern setting (D.C.) Ive seen a fair amount of this country, but I can't honsetly say ive learned to much from those trips. I realize that 2 places, even if going from rural to urban, is not that much of the country. True. However, as I noted I do go to a very diverse school. Most of my friends come from other countries/ethnicies/races. And I know people from all over america. Still, I suppose im stuck in a college ghetto. C'est la vie.

You never answered my question about what youve seen of the world though.
Post Sun Nov 24, 2002 2:55 pm
 View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address
futuristxen



Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 19374
Location: Tighten Your Bible Belt
 Reply with quote  

futuristxen wrote:

Yeah I have no firsthand knowledge of any [edit:other] country, sadly. It just hasn't worked out yet where I have been able to do so as much as I want to.




What I meant by that was to answer your question, that no I had not had the joy of experiecing another country firsthand. At most I've had friends from other countries.

I have however spent significant time all over the United States because of a spread out family and a crazy divorce situation. I've actually spent probably about 3 consecutive summers in virginia, like the culpepper(I think I spelled that right) area.
And then after that Colorado, I have relatives in California, Arizona, Minnesota. I've spent summers in Texas, I go to school in New Orleans, and I was born and raised in Oklahoma and Missouri. The only places I haven't spent more than a week at are the pacific northwest and northeast, someday I hope to correct that.

I think your problems with culture lie in the fact that everybody is human so yeah basically everyone IS the same. There's nothing wrong with that view per se. You can't talk about diversity at all under that view though. Which is probably why you have the stance that you do.

But I don't think that it's a view that's entirely true either. I think coming from diffrent backgrounds, diffrent cultures or even diffrent regions(even to an extent whether you came from a small town or a big city)--it gives you a diffrent perspective on things, and in that vien you can really slice it any way you want--you can divide people up along class lines, or racial lines, or religious lines or even regional lines.


The US's diversity and resources ARE special. That is the explanation as to why it is THE superpower right now. It literally has been for much of the last couple of centuries, the land of opportunity and second chances.

Do these things explain past powers? No they don't. Why would they? The United States has been a strange brew of government and geography that you'd have to go to things like the roman empire to get a comparison.

You can't apply the american model to any other country and expect the same results--my evidence for this is latin america, where we have tried to implement the american model and it has failed terribly. America is unique, despite your protestations to the contrary.

Your analysis of the bad things america has done is correct, I'm not saying we have clean hands. But where you and a lot of other people go overboard is you lose track of where america has it's power; when you try and say it's just like every other country, except it's full of more stupid people--that's when I believe you make a mistake.
Post Sun Nov 24, 2002 4:18 pm
 View user's profile Send private message AIM Address MSN Messenger
August Spies



Joined: 09 Aug 2002
Posts: 1979
Location: D.C.
 Reply with quote  

no futurist, you are misunderstanding me. I DO recognize divesrity in places. But I believe it is less pronounced in america than you would pretend. Ive already said some things to back myself up... basically all you are syaing is "hey we got lots of mexicans, doesn't that make us diverse" ;) okay not that bad. But really, you can not POSSIBLY believe that mere ethnicity is grounds for diversity of culture and lifestyle. You might as well say people wear different color shirts so we are diverse.

Anyway my argument is not that america is not diverse, but that it is not any more diverse on any real level than any other country. You have not, as far as I can tell, even attempted to show how america has more diversity of culture than.... say France.


Quote:

I think your problems with culture lie in the fact that everybody is human so yeah basically everyone IS the same.

If you are attempting to summerize my position here you are dead wrong. I do not believe everyone is the same because they are humans. However, I believe people are different by what they do and how they act. Not by how their skin color looks.

I think coming from diffrent backgrounds, diffrent cultures or even diffrent regions(even to an extent whether you came from a small town or a big city)--it gives you a diffrent perspective on things

well this is my point. Okay I have lots of international friends. And peopel from different countries that are going to school here. They ahve geniunly different poitns of views and attitutdes towards things. I also have lots of different ethnic-american friends. They DON"T have different views and attitudes on things. They are americanized.

Look your argument, as far as I can tell, is this: Coming from different enviorments (rural/urban etc...), different ethnicities, different religions etc... makes for diversity. Okay so lets say I buy this argument. So what? How is america different from France or England on the diversity issue? It would seem to me that america would lose out here. If you go to France you will see people from all over europe and they will retain culture from their mother countries. Can you honestly tell me a french-american, swiss-american, german-american, british-american are different from eachother? Most white kids I know don't even know where their family came from. Likewise blacks in france will have different culture if they came from Senegal or Algeria. Not so for American blacks (for reasons no fault their own, to be sure) America de-culturizes people.... whcih may not be a bad thing. but its true. The only ethnic group that seems to have retained any traditional culture is hispanics, but only cause so many are newly american.

The US's diversity and resources ARE special. That is the explanation as to why it is THE superpower right now[...] Do these things explain past powers? No they don't. Why would they?

well I think this is just stupid. America was FAR more diverse cultural back in the day and we were no super power. It took historical events and military/economic power to get us where we are. Ive never bought into abstracted theories of power relations. We are talking about CONCERTE HISTORICAL things here. the United States propping up dictators that supported our economci interests was a THOUSAND times more important to our being a super-power than "the old west attitude."

no offense but saying our diversity is the explanation is no explanation at all. (especially since you have not even attempted to explain how all these otehr culturally diverse countries are not where we are. Of course, concrete historical reasons do explain this.) The reason I said your explanatiuon does not show how past powers became powers because it is divorced from reality. Basically what you are saying is this: The real reason the United States is a super-power is because of X, even though all otehr super powers became super powers is because of Y, Z, Q. Well, why should we believe america's rise to super-powerdom is for completely different reasons than all past super powers?

The only explanation, it seems to me, is an absurdly U.S.-centric stance. So whatever, I will say the U.S. is a super power because of specific historical events, military might, etc... You can claim its because of "that old west attitude" or what not. and in 40 years when we have ceased to be the sole superpower, we shall see what history will show.
Post Sun Nov 24, 2002 4:56 pm
 View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website AIM Address
DM



Joined: 05 Jul 2002
Posts: 6371
Location: www.NERDTORIOUS.com
 Reply with quote  

[quote="Shylax"]Is it possible Absurd and Dr. Q are the dumbest posters on this site...


...no shit.

abacus
Post Sun Nov 24, 2002 5:12 pm
 View user's profile Send private message
futuristxen



Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 19374
Location: Tighten Your Bible Belt
 Reply with quote  

The real reason the United States is a super-power is because of X, even though all otehr super powers became super powers is because of Y, Z, Q. Well, why should we believe america's rise to super-powerdom is for completely different reasons than all past super powers?

I don't think the United States concretely falls into the same formula as past superpowers. I think that the 20th century has marked a change in how things are done. Look at dictators in the 20th century, as opposed to the time before that. I don't think you can effectively compare the United States rise to super powerdom to say Britian or France or Germany. The only other superpower in the 20th century was the USSR. And I showed you that it became a superpower for the same reasons tht the United States did. Which is to say Organization and a large landscape full of natural resources that allowed it to be less reliant on the outside world than other countries.

Think about it, what is pissing everyone off about the United States youth not knowing jack shit about geography, is that they can afford to be completely ignorant and still get a decent meal and a roof over their head.

I don't think you can just point to historical events and say well THAT is the reason why they are in the position of power that they are in--historical events are the result of society, and the people's views, motivations, outlooks and actions; sure there's a touch of luck involved sometimes too--but you're not even attempting to understand the reasons why certain historical events have favored us. I've told you it's mostly due to where our country is located(we didn't really have to worry about a war on our homesoil), and the fact it's been large enough and self-sufficient enough that we could afford to make foriegn policy that would make us unpopular, because if worse came to worse we could just pull up the drawbridge and go back to isolationist politics.

It's funny this question of what is american--because we do have a lot of diffrent ethnicities and everything--but as you say, generally over time they all get "americanized", and maybe that's our advantage over a place like France's diversity--we're able to pull all these diffrent people in under one roof and get them to work toward a common goal. I think we're able to do that, because the ideal of "american" isn't the same as "french" or "italian" or whatever--it's not really an ethnicity--"American" is everybody--whether in the begining it was germans/italians/ and irish--or now when it is hispanic/and asian. The ugliest things in our past and present have been us forgetting that.
But again, I think the USSR came under this idea as well--Communism(and gunpoint) helped to abolish a lot of barriers and made several diffrent groups across the USSR work together who have since fallen into war without that bond.

Anyhow, whatever. This has been interesting and made me think harder about what America is and isn't. Much appreciated.
Post Sun Nov 24, 2002 5:37 pm
 View user's profile Send private message AIM Address MSN Messenger

Post new topic Reply to topic
Jump to:  
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next
All times are GMT - 6 Hours.
The time now is Sat Dec 20, 2014 1:38 pm
  Display posts from previous:      


Powered by phpBB: © 2001 phpBB Group
Template created by The Fathom
Based on template of Nick Mahon