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SoundDoctrine



Joined: 20 Nov 2002
Posts: 423
Location: Nomad
Uh...  Reply with quote  

It didn't show my signature...
Post Wed Nov 20, 2002 3:28 pm
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August Spies



Joined: 09 Aug 2002
Posts: 1979
Location: D.C.
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"Racism is racism on any level. There is no "true" racism. There's just racism. To suggest that "lite" racism is ok because criticizing it demeans "real" racism is ridiculous.
Its racism any way you slice it."

no. World isn't black and white bub.
Post Wed Nov 20, 2002 3:34 pm
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Dee



Joined: 19 Jul 2002
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How are you effectively dismissing my point by saying that?

There are "degrees" of racism, sure. But they are ALL RACISM.
Post Wed Nov 20, 2002 3:36 pm
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August Spies



Joined: 09 Aug 2002
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I said your complaints are falsely accusing something of racism and that it demeans real racism...

I did not say "this is only mild racism, not real racism"

but to play along anyways:
"There are "degrees" of racism, sure. But they are ALL RACISM."

this really means nothing. For analogy, Crime. Jaywalking is a crime, rape is a crime. I can legitimatly say "its all crime!" but what does this mean?
on one hand it could mean I am equating them all, or at least saying they are all pretty much the same. This is of course absurd.
On the other hand I could merely be pointing out they are all crimes... but this doesnt' get us anywhere. It doesn't REALLY say anything about the relationship of jaywalking to rape.
Post Wed Nov 20, 2002 3:39 pm
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Dee



Joined: 19 Jul 2002
Posts: 7872
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There's a difference between crime and racism.

Obviously, someone saying "n-----" and someone trying to lynch a black man is different.

But it doesn't make the first person any more innocent of racism, nor does it demean a "real" victim (of the lynching) by saying the first person is racist.

And I stand by my statement that the original article had racist undertones.
I am not saying that the guy who wrote it is racist.
I am saying that he is unaware of what he may have said in the article.
Post Wed Nov 20, 2002 3:44 pm
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August Spies



Joined: 09 Aug 2002
Posts: 1979
Location: D.C.
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you guys should remember that things like music are not race specific. Hip hop is not BLACKness. on one hand, its hardly the only type of music to come from black america, on the otehr hand plenty of other races were invovled with it throughout its extence.

One CAN critique hip hop, or even mainstream hip hop and not be using racism.

In the same way I should be allowed to critique the rotten govermental policies of Isreal or the rotteness of Islam without being called a racist.
Post Wed Nov 20, 2002 3:47 pm
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Shylax



Joined: 12 Aug 2002
Posts: 153
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Quote:

I can't believe what you just said...What can a kid who's mom is working two jobs to put food on the table and keep the lights on relate with stuff like "17's on up is all I ride" or "So much ice, my neck frozen"...


Where exactly did I say that? With those lyrics? See, you're generalizing like I said most cats here do.

Can they relate to those examples you provided? No.

But they can relate to

"So I changed my motto, instead of saying fuck tomorrow
The same dollar that bought the bottle could have stuck the lotto"

Or

"I made the change from a common theif
To up close and personal with Robin Leach"

Can they relate to the having money. No. But we relate to striving for better.

Thei is a lot of dismissable raps in the mainstream but generalizing on it as a whole is wrong.
Post Wed Nov 20, 2002 3:51 pm
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Dee



Joined: 19 Jul 2002
Posts: 7872
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Of course you can critique it all you want.

But only if you understand the culture from which it came...you can't look at it through cultural binoculars. Rap was created in black culture, so you should try to understand that culture in order to evaluate it fairly.
Post Wed Nov 20, 2002 3:55 pm
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Shylax



Joined: 12 Aug 2002
Posts: 153
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Quote:

you guys should remember that things like music are not race specific. Hip hop is not BLACKness. on one hand, its hardly the only type of music to come from black america, on the otehr hand plenty of other races were invovled with it throughout its extence.

One CAN critique hip hop, or even mainstream hip hop and not be using racism.


I agree 100%. But make a an informed critique. Don't dismiss based on gross generalizations based on the content as it pertains to your culture.

Hiphop's foundation is inner city black and latino culture. Nothing's changing that. The majority of hiphop has and does come from there.

However "Blinging" and stuff isn't a recent phenomena. In the seventies, artists wore outlandish clothes emulating Parliament. That graduated to gold ropes and rings which elevated to platinum which elevated to ice. It's always been there. Like it or not materialism has been a part of black culture for decades. It's part of the foundation. To obsess over it like some mainstream artists do is admittedly bad but it has a place. That flashiness is not inherent in white culture. I think that's why it's hard for most white hiphop fans to relate to mainstream dismissing such artists. Therefore, i can't agree hiphop is not race specific. It's inclusionary but it'll never be colorblind. Society's not so how can hiphop be?

Is the materialism wrong? who knows. But it's always been in hiphop and always will be because it's derived from black culture.
Post Wed Nov 20, 2002 4:03 pm
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Shylax



Joined: 12 Aug 2002
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Djdee beat me to it
Post Wed Nov 20, 2002 4:04 pm
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Dee



Joined: 19 Jul 2002
Posts: 7872
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Its MURDAAAAAA
Post Wed Nov 20, 2002 4:06 pm
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Shylax



Joined: 12 Aug 2002
Posts: 153
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And to make a point,

This guy used Eminem as an example implying he could be more than a gimmick. Sage dropped a post about Em where people say he wasted his talent.

Why is Eminem a waste of talent but Jay Z isn't? You dismiss Jay Z as speaking only about being rich but I've never seen anyone here say he's a waste of talent or brought up in essays like this guy's. Why?

Because he's a white emcee he should be able to rap about more intellectual and emotional subjects and Jay Z can't?

Again not saying people on here are racist but try to see through our eyes what some of the things you guys write about can be construed that way
Post Wed Nov 20, 2002 4:11 pm
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SoundDoctrine



Joined: 20 Nov 2002
Posts: 423
Location: Nomad
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I stand corrected on certain degrees...You are right about what they CAN relate to...But there seems to be more of the unrelatable...But you are right about the materialism...It HAS been around (whatha know about that dookie chain?)...I don't know, I just feel like lyrics are so manufactured now...It's like De La Soul...They came up in alot of the same surroundings, but are WAY more advanced and offer more advice than Fabolous...And I'm referring to their EARLY releases! It's like back when...The lyrics didn't depict fantastic displays of how to kill or whateva...It stated details and whatever, but it didn't make the whole thing seem appealing...That's the vibe I get...An artist talking about how he's spendin' money on this and that, then on the next track, he's gotta come up from this sh-t or whateva...I don't know, but I feel the scale is tilted drastically from what is tangable and what isn't...But GREAT examples though...Turned my thought somewhat...But I don't think still that standards can't be lowered as far as intelligence goes...I don't know...I lost my Reflection Eternal...I need to go find my Train Of Thought...

You like that don't ya...
Post Wed Nov 20, 2002 4:14 pm
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Shylax



Joined: 12 Aug 2002
Posts: 153
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^^^

I agree 100% SoundDoctrine and being an old school head I do long for those days. I feel there was balance back then but now it's getting out of hand. But their can be a diamond in a lump of coal. There can be a good message in a bullshit song. Just have an open mind and hear it out all the way through before trashing it.

Hell, I think cash Money is wack as fuck but I know where they're coming from. And maybe they'll suprise me someday. I can't shut out that possibility.

and De La (my favs of all time) grew up in the burbs so they weren't as broke as others. LOL. But I see you.
Post Wed Nov 20, 2002 4:25 pm
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SoundDoctrine



Joined: 20 Nov 2002
Posts: 423
Location: Nomad
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Really? They grew up in the burbs? Man...I feel stupid...I could have sworn...I'm gonna look that up...Oh...By the way...I still get crunk to some three six every now and then...Pastor troy...Oomp Camp...But I take very little and as a grain of salt...I don't care what anyone says either...Manny Fresh (especially his older stuff) is one of the Beat Constructing Geniuses of rap...
Post Wed Nov 20, 2002 4:32 pm
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