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What is Your Translation of GOD?
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the incredible ticktalk



Joined: 07 Jul 2002
Posts: 40
Location: iowa
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i'm really not trying to come off salty here. I'm not denying that there could be a higher power, i already said that i belive there is one, i just think lots of our problems come ancient ideals as far as religion goes, ....i think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one






i'm not trying to solve anything, if i was, i wouldn't be sitting behind a computer in the afternoon.



well at least this computer anyway :)
Post Wed Jul 10, 2002 1:14 pm
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caligula



Joined: 30 Jun 2002
Posts: 255
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
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Reggie wrote:
In your second paragraph, you said, "We just make up the best theories we can."

In the first, you said, "[Ancient people] didn't know about electricity, or diffusion, or nuclear effects."

From that, I can glean that neither do we. We think we know, just like you think you know that occurrences cannot be rationally attributed to supernatural beings, or like you think you know what happens during an atomic explosion. You don't, nobody does. We make assumptions and build on those assumptions with more assumptions. But wipe them away, we're all still trying to bang on rocks to make fire.

Consider that those that believe and have faith in God are not wondering about these kinds of things. They know, and already have all the answers they will ever need. Doesn't seem like they're very disadvantaged to me.


theres a difference between "theories" made before the scientific method was standardized and ones made afterwards. all scientific laws and theories have been "proven" emperically thousands of times, as well as having a sound mathematical proof. thats good enough for me to treat as if its the truth, just blaming god for everything isnt.
Post Wed Jul 10, 2002 1:17 pm
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caligula



Joined: 30 Jun 2002
Posts: 255
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
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Reggie wrote:
The original statement in question was exactly that "ancient peoples" were less technologically advanced and therefore made up God to explain things away.

Seems like a liberal and unsubstantiated jump to make, in my opinion, and it is completely relevant to the discussion.

Don't be mad, we're discussing.


well look at roman mythology, they attributed everything to gods, everything they couldnt explain. its not nearly so easy to see in the bible, but its not such a big jump from mythology to christianity, because they are along the same lines...
Post Wed Jul 10, 2002 1:22 pm
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BoggleTheory



Joined: 05 Jul 2002
Posts: 83
Location: Worcester, MA
Advancded Ancient Cultures...  Reply with quote  

Have any of you heard of 'ooparts' they are archaelogical finds that exhibit technological advancement beyond what we believe ancient cultures had attained. For instance, numerous cave paintings have been uncovered that portray our modern rocket ships, and what we believe to be flying saucers. There have been tablets found that discuss personal 'rocket packs', yeah, I know a bit far-fetched, but unexplainable none the less. We as a society in general seem to define our advancement by scientific and technological discoveries, while ancients seemed to focus more on spirituality and survival....I guess it's just an opinion of who's more 'advanced.' Either way, there is so much going on in the small part of the universe we inhabit that cannot be described. To be under the impression we have the slightest clue of why we are here, or even what we are is just a joke.
More food for thought....most species of animal (including apes) have only 2 or 3 genetic 'errors' or diseases that occur, while humans have over 200. According to scientists, these errors and diseases occur when tampering or splicing of the genes take place. Kinda makes you think.....I guess.
Post Wed Jul 10, 2002 1:25 pm
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Reggie



Joined: 01 Jul 2002
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Location: Queens, NYC
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You know, this discussion reminds me of something Robert Anton Wilson pointed out about Western vs. Eastern culture in one of the books in the Cosmic Trigger trilogy. He says that in the West, the impetus is to form opinions about things, while in Eastern culture, this is generally not the case. In our rush to form opinions, says Wilson, we create substantiation that isn't really there in order to validate our own thinking. And through these opinions, we further base other opinions.

This is not to say that you are wrong and I am right. It is just to show that there are more than one mode of thought and discourse, and the "us vs. them" mentality is only one of them. I don't believe in God--at least not any God that I would have to pay--but I will say that there is plenty of evidence to prove and disprove God's existence. The evidence you choose to believe is the one that determines your opinion on the matter--but that doesn't make it more correct or valid. It should go without saying that the same goes for me.
Post Wed Jul 10, 2002 1:27 pm
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MessiahCarey



Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 10924
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caligula wrote:
you dont happen to have any links on this subject that i could peruse do you? because frankly this is news to me and i am unprepared to debate this.

edit: this is to messiah carey


Honestly, I've never really looked into it on the net.

I will do so soon, and get back to you.

I can highly recommend any book written by Charles Berlitz.

"Atlantis"
"2000"
"The Bermuda Triangle"

They are in the "Speculation" or "Speculative Non-Fiction" in the book store...but don't let that discredit the theories, it's just a book categorization after all. (Besides, I said it was no proof to begin with...heh.)

Peace,
Shane
Post Wed Jul 10, 2002 1:30 pm
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Reggie



Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 5765
Location: Queens, NYC
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caligula wrote:
well look at roman mythology, they attributed everything to gods, everything they couldnt explain. its not nearly so easy to see in the bible, but its not such a big jump from mythology to christianity, because they are along the same lines...


So you are syaing, definitely and without any doubt whatsoever, that the sun isn't a guy driving a flaming chariot through the sky?
Post Wed Jul 10, 2002 1:30 pm
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MessiahCarey



Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 10924
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Reggie wrote:
You know, this discussion reminds me of something Robert Anton Wilson pointed out about Western vs. Eastern culture in one of the books in the Cosmic Trigger trilogy. He says that in the West, the impetus is to form opinions about things, while in Eastern culture, this is generally not the case. In our rush to form opinions, says Wilson, we create substantiation that isn't really there in order to validate our own thinking. And through these opinions, we further base other opinions.

This is not to say that you are wrong and I am right. It is just to show that there are more than one mode of thought and discourse, and the "us vs. them" mentality is only one of them. I don't believe in God--at least not any God that I would have to pay--but I will say that there is plenty of evidence to prove and disprove God's existence. The evidence you choose to believe is the one that determines your opinion on the matter--but that doesn't make it more correct or valid. It should go without saying that the same goes for me.


Genius.

You quote R.A. Wilson and I'm fucking sold, according to the prophecy.

Peace,
Shane
Post Wed Jul 10, 2002 1:32 pm
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caligula



Joined: 30 Jun 2002
Posts: 255
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
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Reggie wrote:
You know, this discussion reminds me of something Robert Anton Wilson pointed out about Western vs. Eastern culture in one of the books in the Cosmic Trigger trilogy. He says that in the West, the impetus is to form opinions about things, while in Eastern culture, this is generally not the case. In our rush to form opinions, says Wilson, we create substantiation that isn't really there in order to validate our own thinking. And through these opinions, we further base other opinions.

This is not to say that you are wrong and I am right. It is just to show that there are more than one mode of thought and discourse, and the "us vs. them" mentality is only one of them. I don't believe in God--at least not any God that I would have to pay--but I will say that there is plenty of evidence to prove and disprove God's existence. The evidence you choose to believe is the one that determines your opinion on the matter--but that doesn't make it more correct or valid. It should go without saying that the same goes for me.


could be true, i spend a lot fo time thinking about things and i use discussions such as this to strengthen my opinions. so yeah, it is to validate my own thinking. i dont have a problem with that, but i dont really expect to change anyone else's opinion here, its just for fun...
Post Wed Jul 10, 2002 1:39 pm
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caligula



Joined: 30 Jun 2002
Posts: 255
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Re: Advancded Ancient Cultures...  Reply with quote  

BoggleTheory wrote:
Have any of you heard of 'ooparts' ...



sorry i havent, but it could just be that people dont want that sort of thing publicized. like i asked messiah, if you ahve some links i could read, i would love to.
Post Wed Jul 10, 2002 1:43 pm
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Jesse



Joined: 02 Jul 2002
Posts: 6166
Location: privileged homeless
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chiming in: I don't believe in anything that requires an effort to believe it. I believe only what is made obvious to me.

God is sooooooo not obvious to me.
Post Wed Jul 10, 2002 4:21 pm
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MessiahCarey



Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 10924
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Jesse.

In case I never brought this to your attention before, a comment you made once (a looooooooooong time ago) made me think you'd be interested in this link:

http://www.atheists-for-jesus.com

Peace and respect,
Shane
Post Wed Jul 10, 2002 4:32 pm
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Jesse



Joined: 02 Jul 2002
Posts: 6166
Location: privileged homeless
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yes indeed, I'm finding that link very interesting! I especially like the Jesus vs. Paul angle... I've long harboured less than the greatest love for Paul.

I don't think I'll join anyone in spreading Jesus' love, per se, but these are cats I wouldn't get into a sharply worded fight with, I don't think. ^_^

good lookin' out

(the apostrophe is my apostacy)
Post Wed Jul 10, 2002 4:42 pm
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djmed



Joined: 10 Jul 2002
Posts: 68
Location: Gaithersburg, MD
Islamic Defintion of God (Allah) what i believe.  Reply with quote  

Who is Allah?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is a known fact that every language has one or more terms that are used in reference to God and sometimes to lesser deities. This is not the case with Allah. Allah is the personal name of the One true God. Nothing else can be called Allah. The term has no plural or gender. This shows its uniqueness when compared with the word god which can be made plural, gods, or feminine, goddess. It is interesting to notice that Allah is the personal name of God in Aramaic, the language of Jesus and a sister language of Arabic.
The One true God is a reflection of the unique concept that Islam associates with God. To a Muslim, Allah is the Almighty, Creator and Sustainer of the universe, Who is similar to nothing and nothing is comparable to Him. The Prophet Muhammad was asked by his contemporaries about Allah; the answer came directly from God Himself in the form of a short chapter of the Quran, which is considered the essence of the unity or the motto of monotheism. This is chapter 112 which reads:


"In the name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate.
Say (O Muhammad) He is God the One God, the Everlasting Refuge, who has not begotten, nor has been begotten, and equal to Him is not anyone."


Some non-Muslims allege that God in Islam is a stern and cruel God who demands to be obeyed fully. He is not loving and kind. Nothing can be farther from truth than this allegation. It is enough to know that, with the exception of one, each of the 114 chapters of the Quran begins with the verse: "In the name of God, the Merciful, the Compassionate." In one of the sayings of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) we are told that "God is more loving and kinder than a mother to her dear child."
But God is also Just. Hence evildoers and sinners must have their share of punishment and the virtuous, His bounties and favors. Actually God's attribute of Mercy has full manifestation in His attribute of Justice. People suffering throughout their lives for His sake and people oppressing and exploiting other people all their lives should not receive similar treatment from their Lord. Expecting similar treatment for them will amount to negating the very belief in the accountability of man in the Hereafter and thereby negating all the incentives for a moral and virtuous life in this world. The following Quranic verses are very clear and straightforward in this respect:


"Verily, for the Righteous are gardens of Delight, in the Presence of their Lord. Shall We then treat the people of Faith like the people of Sin? What is the matter with you? How judge you?" (68:34-36)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Islam rejects characterizing God in any human form or depicting Him as favoring certain individuals or nations on the basis of wealth, power or race. He created the human beings as equals. They may distinguish themselves and get His favor through virtue and piety only.
The concept that God rested in the seventh day of creation, that God wrestled with one of His soldiers, that God is an envious plotter against mankind, or that God is incarnate in any human being are considered blasphemy from the Islamic point of view.

The unique usage of Allah as a personal name of God is a reflection of Islam's emphasis on the purity of the belief in God which is the essence of the message of all God's messengers. Because of this, Islam considers associating any deity or personality with God as a deadly sin which God will never forgive, despite the fact He may forgive all other sins.


[Note that what is meant above applies ONLY to those people who die in a state wherein they are associating others with God. The repentance of those who yet live is acceptable to God if He wills.]
The Creator must be of a different nature from the things created because if he is of the same nature as they are, he will be temporal and will therefore need a maker. It follows that nothing is like Him. If the maker is not temporal, then he must be eternal. But if he is eternal, he cannot be caused, and if nothing outside him causes him to continue to exist, which means that he must be self-sufficient. And if the does not depend on anything for the continuance of his own existence, then this existence can have no end. The Creator is therefore eternal and everlasting: "He is the First and the Last."
He is Self-Sufficient or Self-Subsistent or, to use a Quranic term, Al-Qayyum. The Creator does not create only in the sense of bringing things into being, He also preserves them and takes them out of existence and is the ultimate cause of whatever happens to them.


"God is the Creator of everything. He is the guardian over everything. Unto Him belong the keys of the heavens and the earth." (39:62, 63)

"No creature is there crawling on the earth, but its provision rests on God. He knows its lodging place and it repository." (11:6)


God's Attributes
If the Creator is Eternal and Everlasting, then His attributes must also be eternal and everlasting. He should not lose any of His attributes nor acquire new ones. If this is so, then His attributes are absolute. Can there be more than one Creator with such absolute attributes? Can there be for example, two absolutely powerful Creators? A moment's thought shows that this is not feasible.
The Quran summarizes this argument in the following verses:


"God has not taken to Himself any son, nor is there any god with Him: For then each god would have taken of that which he created and some of them would have risen up over others." (23:91)
And Why, were there gods in earth and heaven other than God, they (heaven and earth) would surely go to ruin." (21:22)


The Oneness of God
The Quran reminds us of the falsity of all alleged gods. To the worshippers of man-made objects, it asks:
"Do you worship what you have carved yourself?" (37:95)
"Or have you taken unto you others beside Him to be your protectors, even such as have no power either for good or for harm to themselves?" (13:16)


To the worshippers of heavenly bodies it cites the story of Abraham:

"When night outspread over him he saw a star and said, 'This is my Lord.' But when it set he said, 'I love not the setters.' When he saw the moon rising, he said, 'This is my Lord.' But when it set he said, 'If my Lord does not guide me I shall surely be of the people gone astray.' When he saw the sun rising, he said, 'This is my Lord; this is greater.' But when it set he said, 'O my people, surely I quit that which you associate, I have turned my face to Him Who originated the heavens and the earth; a man of pure faith, I am not of the idolaters.'" (6:76-79)

The Believer's Attitude
In order to be a Muslim, i.e., to surrender oneself to God, it is necessary to believe in the oneness of God, in the sense of His being the only Creator, Preserver, Nourisher, etc. But this belief - later on called "Tawhid Ar-Rububiyyah" - is not enough. Many of the idolaters knew and believed that only the Supreme God could do all this, but that was not enough to make them Muslims. To tawhid ar-rububiyyah one must add tawhid al'uluhiyyah, i.e., one acknowledges the fact that is God alone Who deserves to be worshipped, and thus abstains from worshipping any other thing or being.
Having achieved this knowledge of the one true God, man should constantly have faith in Him, and should allow nothing to induce him to deny truth.

When faith enters a person's heart, it causes certain mental states which result in certain actions. Taken together these mental states and actions are the proof for the true faith. The Prophet said, "Faith is that which resides firmly in the heart and which is proved by deeds." Foremost among those mental states is the feeling of gratitude towards God which could be said to be the essence of 'ibada' (worship).

The feeling of gratitude is so important that a non-believer is called 'kafir' which means 'one who denies a truth' and also 'one who is ungrateful.'

A believer loves, and is grateful to God for the bounties He bestowed upon him, but being aware of the fact that his good deeds, whether mental or physical, are far from being commensurate with Divine favors, he is always anxious lest God should punish him, here or in the Hereafter. He, therefore, fears Him, surrenders himself to Him and serves Him with great humility. One cannot be in such a mental state without being almost all the time mindful of God. Remembering God is thus the life force of faith, without which it fades and withers away.

The Quran tries to promote this feeling of gratitude by repeating the attributes of God very frequently. We find most of these attributes mentioned together in the following verses of the Quran:


"He is God; there is no god but He, He is the Knower of the unseen and the visible; He is the All-Merciful, the All-Compassionate. He is God, there is no God but He. He is the King, the All-Holy, the All-Peace, the Guardian of Faith, the All-Preserver, the All-Mighty, the All-Compeller, the All-Sublime. Glory be to God, above that they associate! He is God the Creator, the Maker, the Shaper. To Him belong the Names Most Beautiful. All that is in the heavens and the earth magnifies Him; He is the All-Mighty, the All-Wise." (59:22-24)
"There is no god but He, the Living, the Everlasting. Slumber seizes Him not, neither sleep; to Him belongs all that is in the heavens and the earth. Who is there that shall intercede with Him save by His leave? He knows what lies before them and what is after them, and they comprehend not anything of His knowledge save such as He wills. His throne comprises the heavens and earth; the preserving of them oppresses Him not; He is the All-High, the All-Glorious." (2:255)


"People of the Book, go not beyond the bounds in your religion, and say not as to God but the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only the Messenger of God, and His Word that He committed to Mary, and a Spirit from Him. So believe in God and His Messengers, and say not, 'Three.' Refrain; better is it for you. God is only one God. Glory be to Him - (He is) above having a son." (4:171)
Post Wed Jul 10, 2002 10:06 pm
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MessiahCarey



Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 10924
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www.thetruereligion.com for more on djmed's Islamic faith.

Good resource - although he'd probably know better than me it seems on point.

Peace,
Shane
Post Wed Jul 10, 2002 10:22 pm
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