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Strange Famous Forum > Social stuff. Political stuff. KNOWMORE

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quasifoto



Joined: 30 Jun 2002
Posts: 975
Location: Albany
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praise seitan!
Post Mon Sep 01, 2003 7:21 pm
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somber



Joined: 29 May 2003
Posts: 59
Location: Bay Area
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I was vegetarian for almost two years and I gave it up last week. Don't really know why I chose to eat meat again it just happened. I'll more then likely go back, but I also said I'd never eat meat again.
Post Mon Sep 01, 2003 8:21 pm
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DeuceLeader's Ankle



Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Posts: 61
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first off, I've been vegetarian for 6 years and Vegan for 6 months. The issue is not black-n-white...

for example what causes more harm: a chicken raised in a battery cage polluting the drinking water with point-contact run-off, killed on a conveyer belt that uses natural resources, wrapped in styrafoam and cellophane and shipped cross-country to a supermarket or a carrot from your garden?

ok, howabout this: a mono-crop plant transported across the US in a Semi truck made of metal mined on an Indian reservation burning fossil fuels (i.e. Iraqi children) or a rabbit i killed in my backyard?


i have recently decided it's not what's "less harmful" but what's more sustainable. my favorites authors (Wendell Berry, Gary Snyder, and Derrick Jensen) all eat meat but they also all try to live sustainably.

and so i plan to eat meat again - provided that i kill it using the least amount of resources.

so a veg can be vegetarian/vegan/raw foodist and live in an ecologically and socially non-sustainable way (importing tofu and rice from southeast asia = oil tankers, migrant/slave labor, nationwide trucking industry, etc)
or a meat eater can live in a completly sustainable and balanced way.

am i "morally" better than a Nootkas Indian beacuse i don't eat salmon? when his lifestyle could have continued infinitely whereas my culture (western civilization) cannot, by design or definition, continue.
Post Mon Sep 01, 2003 11:40 pm
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August Spies



Joined: 09 Aug 2002
Posts: 1979
Location: D.C.
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good post.
Post Mon Sep 01, 2003 11:44 pm
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DeuceLeader's Ankle



Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Posts: 61
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(I sent this article to a professor of mine who studied animal rights and is writing a book of veganism. here's his reply...)


There is no reason to distinguish between animal rights theory and utilitarianism. Harm includes not only death but also pain and suffering inflicted upon animals during their death. Minimizing harm is the basis of many ethical systems, including Buddhism, Islam, and animal rights theory. Whether or not Davis wants to apply the historically recent (late eighteenth-century) term “utilitarianism” is irrelevant to the question of minimizing harm.

Davis fails to account for the fact that most ruminants are not grazed but are, rather, fed grains produced on cropland. The field animals killed during crop production die, for the most part, as a result of producing feed for livestock.

Although soybeans and other legumes are central to a vegan diet, corn is not. More important are fruits, vegetables, rice, and other grains, such as wheat, oats, quinoa, and millet. Most of the corn produced in the United States is used for livestock production. The estimate of 120 million ha of cropland in the United States includes cropland used to produce feed for livestock. As John Robbins points out in Diet for a New America, much less cropland would be needed if Americans switched to a vegan diet. The estimate of animals killed during tillage, planting, and harvest should be adjusted accordingly.

There is also no reason to assume that pesticides would be used in production of crops for a vegan diet. In fact, most vegans would prefer organic foods.

Also figure into calculations of harm the increase in wildlife habitat that would accompany a conversion to a vegan diet, which, as Robbins demonstrates, requires less land under production.

Also figure into calculations of harm the decreased need for fossil fuels and the concomitant decreased impact upon wildlife that would accompany a conversion to a vegan diet, which, as Robbins demonstrates, requires less energy expenditure.

The best responses to much of what Davis writes are in John Robbins’ Diet for a New America.
Post Mon Sep 01, 2003 11:46 pm
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DeuceLeader's Ankle



Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Posts: 61
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August Spies wrote:
good post.


thank you.

by the way, i'm a big fan of yours.
Post Mon Sep 01, 2003 11:48 pm
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August Spies



Joined: 09 Aug 2002
Posts: 1979
Location: D.C.
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haha, um.... thanks!
Post Tue Sep 02, 2003 9:20 am
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DeuceLeader's Ankle



Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Posts: 61
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dallasbboy wrote:
The longest surviving people on the earth (Okinawans) combine a high intake vegetable diet with seafood and ocasional red meat consumption


Actually, the longest surviving people on earth are the !Kung Bushmen of the Kalahari desert - which makes sense if you think about it as Africa is where mankind emerged. It wasn't until tens of thousands of years later did s/he migrate through Asia and over to Japan and then finally down to Okinawa. But your point about their diet was spot on.


August Spies,

Have you ever read any of Bruno Filippi's writings? They're some of the freshest things I've read in a while....
Post Wed Sep 03, 2003 11:24 pm
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KefkaTaran



Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Posts: 29
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I honestly wish I had the willpower to become a vegetarian. Or at least didn't live where I do. I imagine it'd be easier if I had easier access to non-meat-containing foods. ALAS!
Post Wed Sep 03, 2003 11:27 pm
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rubix138



Joined: 15 Jul 2002
Posts: 662
Location: New Albany, Indiana
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DeuceLeader's Ankle, hahaahahahah. thats a funny ass name.
Post Wed Sep 03, 2003 11:28 pm
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August Spies



Joined: 09 Aug 2002
Posts: 1979
Location: D.C.
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Bruno Fillippi? no, i've never heard of him. What does he write?
Post Wed Sep 03, 2003 11:28 pm
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DeuceLeader's Ankle



Joined: 01 Sep 2003
Posts: 61
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The Rebel's Dark Laughter: Writings Of Bruno Filippi

"I envy the savages. And I will cry to them in a loud voice: "Save yourselves, civilization is coming." Bruno Filippi, 1918

This new pamphlet compiling all the known writings of the iconoclastic italian anarchist and free spirit Bruno Filippi has been translated into english from italian by our insurrectional comrades at Venomous Butterfly Publications, and offers something rare in anarchist writing - truly beautiful literature. Little is known about the enigmatic Bruno Filippi, except that he was born in 1900 in Livorno, Italy and that by age 15 he was already active in the anarchist struggle and had been identified by the Italian police as a "dangerous element." We know that he was a close friend and associate of Renzo Novatore, the rebel poet and pagan anarchist insurgent, who described Filippi as "one of the few frantic lovers of life, he was a heroic poet of the deed who in the destruction of himself and his Misfortunes created a tragic song to the "triumph of the imperishable will", to the cult of eternal joy and beauty. He offered all the corroding and luminous flames of his ardent, sorrowful and tortured mind. Then he dissolved in the Void, a luminous and wandering voice that remains with us, incessantly whispering: "Dare, Dare!."

During his brief but intense life, Bruno Filippi was a regular contributor to the individualist anarchist paper Iconoclasta!, where he published vicious, melancholy articles attacking the Bourgeoisie and the sheep-like slaves who meekly submitted to their rule. He was also one of the first anarchists that I'm aware of (along with Renzo Novatore) who began to seriously question "progress" and civilization itself. On September 7th, 1919, Bruno Filippi was seen climbing the steps of the building where the "club of nobles" was located. He was carrying a bomb, hoping to destroy this meeting place for the richest people in the city. Tragically, this bomb exploded before he could accomplish his mission, killing the young anarchist at the tender age of 20. He left behind a small body of essays, stories and prose poems that show no mercy for either domination or subservience in any form. His writings seem (to me) to be influenced by Rimbaud and Baudrelaire (particularly the latters "Flowers Of Evil" poem cycle) while at the same time expressing a stylistic uniqueness all their own.

The writings of Bruno Filippi and Renzo Novatore represent to me the heart and soul of anarchism, a movement supposedly dedicated to the complete, unconditional freedom of every individual. It's a sad commentary on the current dismal state of the anarchist press that we have to turn to the translations of relatively unknown anarchist writers from the early 1900's to counteract the sleep-inducing, organizational propaganda of publications like "Onward" and "The Northeastern Anarchist", but hey, whatever it takes to remind people of what anarchism was originally all about! This pamphlet comes highly recommended, along with it's companion volume "Towards The Creative Nothing" by Renzo Novatore. They can both be ordered for $2.00 each from: Venomous Butterfly Publications P.O. Box 31098 Los Angeles, CA 90031
Post Thu Sep 04, 2003 9:06 am
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tinkleDRINKER



Joined: 25 Jul 2002
Posts: 788
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vegitarian: 1990 - 2002
BS food science & nutrional science: 1999
habitual jogger: 2000 - present
signs of severe malnutrion: mid 2001 - mid 2002
back on the beef: early 2002 - present
Post Thu Sep 04, 2003 10:19 am
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the mean
Certified O.G.


Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 6497
Location: philly/sacto/kauai/ohio
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tinkleDRINKER wrote:
vegitarian: 1990 - 2002
BS food science & nutrional science: 1999
habitual jogger: 2000 - present
signs of severe malnutrion: mid 2001 - mid 2002
back on the beef: early 2002 - present


vegetarian: 1990-present
vegan: 1993-present
last time i was sick: 1991
back on the beef: never
Post Thu Sep 04, 2003 10:46 am
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sinicalypse



Joined: 10 Aug 2002
Posts: 73
Location: my condo on slug's jock
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this one's goin' out to all of my veggie vegan homeboys and homegirls:
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Post Thu Sep 04, 2003 11:35 am
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