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the removal of the 10 commandments statue
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Strange Famous Forum > Social stuff. Political stuff. KNOWMORE

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MessiahCarey



Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 10924
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johnny yuma wrote:
MessiahCarey wrote:

August is probably on point with the slavery thing


are you serious? do you really think that a modern man would vote to 'approve slavery'?

its obvious that you people have never been to alabama. its not what you've seen on some movie.

judging like this based strictly on where someone lives, is no different that actually judging based on race.

"people are people are people are people are people"
--- awol


You cut off my WHOLE STATEMENT...first off it implies unsurity with the word PROBABLY (which you chose to ignore).

The WHOLE STATEMENT goes like this:

"August is probably on point with the slavery thing - but it could've gone either way. "

Now...what I was getting at was that we will never know what people would or wouldn't be accepting of right now because history was just plain different. Had slavery NEVER been abolished in the South...had the war not happened...yada yada yada...then maybe it could have been upheld by votes. The possibility is there...most of the racists I know have racist parents...so in that respect it's not hard to think that racism could be handed down a mere 4 generations (your great great grandfather could have owned slaves).

- Shane
Post Thu Aug 28, 2003 1:39 pm
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hugh grants hooker
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August Spies wrote:

Quote:

i DO know that right now... or anytime in my memorable past... slavery would NOT be welcomed in alabama.


well obviously, but if slavery had never been stopped by the war people would view it far differently than they do now.


i dont think so.
when all the civil war shit was going on, it wasnt like this was one united country. all states usually acted individually and in many cases states wouldnt even check into another state's view on a topic until shit was out of hand already.

even if the civil war hadnt happened. slavery wouldnt have come to an end by now. the world has gotten far too small for that shit. people are all connected. i mean look... some kid from the UK is posted about an issue in montgomery alabama. the world is too small for any backwoods societies to still exist. especially in america.
Post Thu Aug 28, 2003 1:42 pm
 
hugh grants hooker
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MessiahCarey wrote:
(your great great grandfather could have owned slaves).

- Shane


haha.

he didnt.
Post Thu Aug 28, 2003 1:45 pm
 
August Spies



Joined: 09 Aug 2002
Posts: 1979
Location: D.C.
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"Anyway, my main point was that our goverment does not work simply on the view of the majority. for good or for bad. "
Post Thu Aug 28, 2003 1:48 pm
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MessiahCarey



Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 10924
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johnny yuma wrote:
MessiahCarey wrote:
(your great great grandfather could have owned slaves).

- Shane


haha.

he didnt.


That's fine, I don't doubt you...he might have been a fairly new immigrant himself - I dunno your history.

The point was to show how FEW generations there have been between when outright phsyical slavery became social and financial slavery...as such, the possibility of slavery still existing, while unlikely, is not as ludicrous and certainly served as the example August was trying to make.

Back to the topic now? Should the states be allowed to usurp the seperation of church and state? I agree with the dissemination of power among the federal and the state, but I think that the seperation clause was too important to the founding fathers - having come from that type of shit - for them to just let each state decide if they were going to be a fundamentalist entity or not.

Constitutional law has two aspects, the LETTER of the Constitution and the SPIRIT of the Constitution....it's a strange world we live in.

- Shane
Post Thu Aug 28, 2003 1:52 pm
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hugh grants hooker
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MessiahCarey wrote:

That's fine, I don't doubt you...he might have been a fairly new immigrant himself - I dunno your history.
- Shane


well... no.

one of my great grandfathers was the first to move to the south in his family. he didnt have what (at the time) was the typical southern mindstate. he didnt own any slaves, he worked as a farmhand... so its more likely he worked with the slaves.

my other great grandfather is someone i've learned alot about. his name was silver runninghorse. he was full blooded comanche... he did not own a slave.

but i see your point. i just wanted to make my point too. most people think all of us 'southerners' have a family history involving slavery. no.
Post Thu Aug 28, 2003 1:57 pm
 
MessiahCarey



Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 10924
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johnny yuma wrote:
most people think all of us 'southerners' have a family history involving slavery. no.


Honestly didn't cross my mind, but I can understand why you'd get slightly defensive over that - I wouldn't want those allegations on my family name.

Unfortunately, I think my family DID own slaves at one point in Ireland - triangular trade style.

- Shane
Post Thu Aug 28, 2003 1:58 pm
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hugh grants hooker
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MessiahCarey wrote:

Back to the topic now? Should the states be allowed to usurp the seperation of church and state?


i think so. the federal government has no idea what type of community a specific city is.

montgomery is such a small, family oriented community... this is the biggest thing to happen to those people in an unbelievable amount of time. the city is literally freaking out. they really really wanted to keep that there.

it isnt like d.c. or new york, where these politicians sit and rule for what they think the different types of people want.
i really dont think you would find any jewish or muslim communities in montgomery.
they did a whole big story on this last night on a local station. they were trying to find ANYONE who was opposed to it, and get them to express honest feelings on it.
ONE guy came forward. he was about 19 or 20 years old. he simply said that he "doesnt believe in mixing church and state, but if its this big of a deal to the city... that they should just leave it alone. its not hurting anyone"

i dont see much of a difference between these two situations:
1. a guy sitting in a chair in another state and making major decisions to effect a small town that he probably doesnt care about.
2. a guy sitting in a chair in another country and making major decisions to effect a small country that he probably doesnt care about.
Post Thu Aug 28, 2003 2:05 pm
 
Dee



Joined: 19 Jul 2002
Posts: 7872
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I thought we resolved this in 1865...
Post Thu Aug 28, 2003 2:07 pm
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MessiahCarey



Joined: 01 Jul 2002
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Hmm. I disagree because I feel that keeping religious fundamentalism out of government is one of the best decisions our founding fathers made. They know the result of it, and wanted to avoid it...I don't think one state should be able to overturn that....

But on the other hand, I don't think there should be countries and states at all. Haha.

That aside...look at religious fundamentalism everywhere else and see how much good it's done them.

- Shane
Post Thu Aug 28, 2003 2:09 pm
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furiousgeorge



Joined: 14 Aug 2003
Posts: 48
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now it is my understanding that the seperation of church and state thing was written so that religion wouldnt dictate what laws were made and other shit like that, now im not a religious person but i do know what the ten commandments are and i think that no matter what religion you are you can live by over half of them. most of them are common sense honor your father and mother, dont kill, dont steal. having a statue in the building isnt making it a catholic building it isnt making the judges favor catholics in the court room, who gives a fuck just put a statue of ginnesh next to it

patrick
Post Thu Aug 28, 2003 2:11 pm
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MessiahCarey



Joined: 01 Jul 2002
Posts: 10924
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furiousgeorge wrote:
now it is my understanding that the seperation of church and state thing was written so that religion wouldnt dictate what laws were made and other shit like that


Well too late for THAT...Prostitution is primarily illegal for fundamentalist moral reasons.

<shrug>

Plus - as August said, that egotistical fuck made the first three rules about himself. Heh.

Seriously, though...I see what you're saying, but it says the state shouldn't SPONSOR any religion...whether that is meant to mean "sponsor" in terms of mere promotion or "sponsor" in the financial sense of the word is kind of a gray area to me.

- Shane
Post Thu Aug 28, 2003 2:15 pm
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August Spies



Joined: 09 Aug 2002
Posts: 1979
Location: D.C.
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Quote:

But on the other hand, I don't think there should be countries and states at all. Haha.



I like you Shane. Are you a fan of the situationists?
Post Thu Aug 28, 2003 4:47 pm
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Awww mn



Joined: 03 Jul 2002
Posts: 2511
Location: barbary coast
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did you just read Society of the Spectacle or something August? you've dropped the situationism HECKSITY times already.

i just made a bunch of decals based on a lil piece of debord agit-prop, but changed the quote to some mf doom wisdom instead.
Post Thu Aug 28, 2003 5:16 pm
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Machiavel



Joined: 30 Oct 2002
Posts: 766
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you know, there really wasnt a seperation of church and state clause in the constitution if i remember correctly. It was written by one of the framers in a different paper. At least thats where the term came from.

the concept in fact is one of the ones that is very important to the united states, as many people came here for religious freedom.

The problem with having a state instituted religious procedure is that it infringes on the freedoms of others.

Now, i am not sure about the senate but i am sure its fine with everyone to pray before the meeting, as long as everyone is christian. Although i still find it unnerving to say the least.

On the other hand if you have a religious monument in a state building, especially a courthouse it would arguably go to the infringement of these rights, and also it would also likely violate the clause in the constitution. The problem also becomes that just because god said some things were wrong, doesnt mean they were wrong, and thus somone could feel that they arent getting a fair judgment by the jury and or judge by the law as much as they are getting judged against christain values (which does violate the clause in the constitution). If that makes any sense.

Same thing with praying in schools but even worse in my opinion. The school shouldnt sponsor prayer time, because if nothing else it would create even more division among students of different beliefs and it would only serve to alienate the students who were not christian even more (apart from all the infringing on the constitution thing).

Anyway thats my rant on this subject. So yeah even though most ppl in alabama wanted that monument in the state building, i would argue that it is still unconstitutional to have there. I mean, just because everyone wanted it there doesnt really mean it should be there. As soon as a non secterain person or somone of anathor religion was in that courtroom or on trial in that courtroom, it would be far out of line to have that monument.

And i agree swearing on the bible is a silly practice, and is an inconsistancy, as is the senate prayer.
Post Thu Aug 28, 2003 5:20 pm
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