mortalthoughts
LAME KID
Joined: 12 Dec 2002
Posts: 11602
Location: MI |
| do morals(morality?) get taught or...? |
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the wording on this s hit is kind of confusing me so if i say something wrong please correct me
i got in an argument about this yesterday
in a nutshell he was saying that morals<are universal universal> were there independent of thought and are there regardless if you 'have them' or not
<not taught>
my argument was that if morals are different in different societys so how can something be universal if they differ
that they must be taught
i.e. theres no way to learn morals<ity?> if your never taughht them
ughhh this shit is soooo confusing me |
Sun Aug 24, 2003 11:57 am |
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The_Human
Joined: 30 Jan 2003
Posts: 1693
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Morals are taught. YOur argument about different societies is the perfect example. I think your born basically good or bad and your enviorment conditions your morals and limits.
But Im sure somebody is just dying to prove me wrong, so go ahead. |
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Sun Aug 24, 2003 12:01 pm |
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mortalthoughts
LAME KID
Joined: 12 Dec 2002
Posts: 11602
Location: MI |
he was also trying to say i couldnt use right or wrong or good or bad in my argument too |
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Sun Aug 24, 2003 12:07 pm |
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The_Human
Joined: 30 Jan 2003
Posts: 1693
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I saw my cousin when he was first born. No lie, he was the evil fucking devil. My aunt claims hes going to grow up to be a serial killer or something. Hes now 2 years old and all he tries to do is cause havok. Squeezes the cat, breaks shit, its crazy.
My aunt certainly didnt teach him that shit.
This is just 1 example, but its the kind of example that proves my point.
Also, has anyone seen "Problem Child"? |
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Sun Aug 24, 2003 12:18 pm |
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The RIAA TookMyMusicAway
Joined: 23 Apr 2003
Posts: 647
Location: San Francisco, CA |
in the case of children like your cousin, i believe 12th trimester abortions should be legalized. |
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Sun Aug 24, 2003 12:58 pm |
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duke_city
Joined: 05 Jul 2002
Posts: 3208
Location: San Diego,CA |
Honestly I think its a combination of the individual's natural sense of morality and their upbringing.
Children from the same family and same parental guidance can end up being completely different people.
Up to a certian age say 12 or so I'd say most kids are playing with the set instilled by their parents. From then on they hold their own.
Brian |
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Sun Aug 24, 2003 1:04 pm |
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August Spies
Joined: 09 Aug 2002
Posts: 1979
Location: D.C. |
"What we call "morals" is simply blind obedience to words of command."
`~Henry Havelock Ellis |
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Sun Aug 24, 2003 1:13 pm |
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PatrickBateman
Joined: 09 Aug 2003
Posts: 2272
Location: Philadelphia, PA |
| Fuck Morals |
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Fuck Morals... "The only thing constant in life is change" same with morals. Just go with how u feel at the moment. |
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Sun Aug 24, 2003 1:30 pm |
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klausmorgan
Joined: 16 Mar 2003
Posts: 122
Location: Northfield, MN |
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In the interest of playing devil's advocate, I'm going to bring up the following argument:
First of all, we assume that morals are taught, as seems to be the concensus so far.
This position holds some great strengths, such as the fact that it does not discriminate against one set of views versus another. A mother in India tells her child that eating meat is absolutely wrong, whereas one in America tells her child that eating meat is absolutely delicious, and neither one is wrong. And... presto chango... no more religious wars!
Except that there's a fundamental weakness that results from this very same thing. This is that we are no longer able to make any distinction between good and bad morality. Since morality is all relative to what you learned, if your parents taught you that it's ok to beat your wife if she's insubordinate, or that killing muslims is OK, then we no longer have any way of saying "No, that's wrong!" in our moral system.
SO the question/challenge for you is this: How can we draw a meaningful distinction between good and bad moralities without being oppressive of legitimate moral standpoints? |
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Sun Aug 24, 2003 1:36 pm |
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August Spies
Joined: 09 Aug 2002
Posts: 1979
Location: D.C. |
klausmorgan,
you are incorrect. That is not the position anyone has taken... yet at least. Merely because we hold that morality is taught, and not innate, we do NOT have to believe that all morals are "relative."
The morality I was taught can be BETTER than morality someone else was taught. My morality might lead towards a safer world, a more stable society etc... whatever criteria you want.
There are really very few serious thinkers who believe in an absolute moral reletavism. Even the founders of subjectivist philosophy, like Nietzsche, would not claim all positions are equal. |
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Sun Aug 24, 2003 1:39 pm |
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klausmorgan
Joined: 16 Mar 2003
Posts: 122
Location: Northfield, MN |
| Re: Fuck Morals |
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PatrickBateman wrote:
Fuck Morals... "The only thing constant in life is change" same with morals. Just go with how u feel at the moment.
Okay, right now I feel like putting a bullet in your gut. Now what, punk? August Spies wrote:
"What we call "morals" is simply blind obedience to words of command."
`~Henry Havelock Ellis
This is true with regards to a lot of religious "morals" such as "Thou shalt not take the Lord's name in vain," but it does not negate the entire idea of morality.
That is to say, even though I do agree to some extent, just because people have a bad morality, where they just obey commands, does not mean that morality doesn't exist. |
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Sun Aug 24, 2003 1:44 pm |
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klausmorgan
Joined: 16 Mar 2003
Posts: 122
Location: Northfield, MN |
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August Spies wrote:
klausmorgan,
you are incorrect. That is not the position anyone has taken... yet at least. Merely because we hold that morality is taught, and not innate, we do NOT have to believe that all morals are "relative."
The morality I was taught can be BETTER than morality someone else was taught. My morality might lead towards a safer world, a more stable society etc... whatever criteria you want.
Okay, so maybe I got a little carried away. But when you claim that morals are taught rather than innate, you still are forced to confront some sticky issues with regards to what morals are good and bad that are not an issue if you take the easy way out and say that morality comes from God Almighty, or even that it's just innate.
So you say that your morality leads to a safer world, more stable society, or so on and so forth. But what if I say that you're full of crap and it's really MY morality that does these things and not yours. What way do you have of settling this dispute.
P.S. Sorry about posting three times on this topic in under an hour. |
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Sun Aug 24, 2003 1:49 pm |
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sleeklegend
Joined: 05 Jul 2002
Posts: 807
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morality doesn't exist. |
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Sun Aug 24, 2003 1:55 pm |
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duke_city
Joined: 05 Jul 2002
Posts: 3208
Location: San Diego,CA |
Any moral system which considers taking a human life ok is fundamentally flawed regardless of reasoning behind it.
Other than that the rest of morals deal with spirituality and sexual mores which are totally dependent on whatever culture they are taught.
Brian |
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Sun Aug 24, 2003 2:06 pm |
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August Spies
Joined: 09 Aug 2002
Posts: 1979
Location: D.C. |
Quote:
But what if I say that you're full of crap and it's really MY morality that does these things and not yours.
well then I would be wrong I suppose.
Quote:
Any moral system which considers taking a human life ok is fundamentally flawed regardless of reasoning behind it.
and how do you decide that? all moral systems I know of consider taking a human life okay in certain circumstances, do you know any that do not or did you not really think before posting? |
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Sun Aug 24, 2003 2:16 pm |
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