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what does it mean to be agnostic?
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hugh grants hooker
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Mike McDermot wrote:


It's all in how you look at it. The question of God doesn't bother some people that much. If I woke up and saw a calculous problem every morning, I'd probably ignore it.


if you would just ignore all this, then that fits the definition of atheism.

agnostics cant ignore it, they also cant figure it out.
Post Wed Jul 30, 2003 10:42 pm
 
Mike McDermot



Joined: 21 Jul 2003
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Here's an excerpt from Jiddu Krishnamurti

"A man who believes in God can never find God. If you are open to reality, there can be no belief in reality. If you are open to the unknown, there can be no belief in it. After all, belief is a form of self-protection, and only a pretty mind can believe in God. Look at the belief of the aviators during the war (i.e. WWII) who said God was their companion as they were dropping bombs! So you believe in God when you kill, when you are exploiting people. You worship God and go on ruthlessly extorting money, supporting the army-yet you say you believe in mercy, compassion, kindness... As long as belief exists, there can never be the unknown; you cannot think about the unknown, thoughtcannot measure it. The mind is the product of the past, it is the result of yesterday, and can such a mind be open to the unknown? It can only project an image, but that image is not real; so your God is not God-it is an image of your own making, an image of your own gratification. There can be reality only when the mind understands the total process of itself and comes to an end. When the mind is completely empty-only then is it capable of recieving the unknown... Only when the mind is wholly silent, completely inactive, not projecting, when it is not seeking and is utterly still-only then that which is eternal and timeless comes into being."
Post Wed Jul 30, 2003 10:51 pm
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hugh grants hooker
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i'm assuming that was for 'the human'. right?
Post Wed Jul 30, 2003 10:54 pm
 
Nope



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Mike McDermot wrote:
"Being agnostic and confused are one in the same."

The simple defintion of agnostic is "not knowing." It is an educated form of not knowing. One looks at the evidence and then says "I can not come to a conclusion either way." It is definitely not the same as being confused. Let's use an anology. Consider a complex math problem, the highest form of calculous. Say the one looking at the problem has only knowledge of basic mathematics. That person does not look at the problem and say "I am confused as to what the answer is." But rather, "I do not have all of the knowledge necessary to solve the problem." Or, more simply, "I do not know the answer." They are not confused over whether the solution is x or y, just as an agnostic is not confused over the answer of God. Simply that, given all of the evidence at had, I don't have the information needed to make a definite descision.


why thank you...sometimes it seems that the simplest concepts have to broken down for people.

accepting your own ignorance is not the same as being confused. When you're confused you're still looking for an answer or have given up on your quest. An agnostic has already decided that at the moment, there is no answer(s).

How hard is that to understand??

there's two kinds of "I don't know"

The stupid fuck "I don't know" which means you don't know what the hell is going on...you're just like "oh I give up"

and the educated "I don't know", in which you have come to the conclusion that you can't come up with anything, regardless of all the information in front of you. Not because you don't understand it, but because there just isn't a known answer . You're ignorant to the answer...but not to the situation.

The key difference here is that when you're confused, you're like "I don't get it"

The agnostic is like "I get it, I get it...but there still is no solution"
Post Wed Jul 30, 2003 10:58 pm
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Nope



Joined: 23 Jan 2003
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and mathematical problems don't work as examples

unless you can think of one to which we have already decided there is no answer

but I suck at math so I wouldn't know
Post Wed Jul 30, 2003 11:01 pm
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Mike McDermot



Joined: 21 Jul 2003
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yes it was. heres another one, they're both for everyone really.

"To be a theist or an atheist, to me, are both absurd. If you knew what truth is, what God is, you would neither be a theist nor an athiest, because in that awareness belief is unnecessary. It is the man who is not aware, who only hopes and supposes, who looks to belief or to disbelief to support him, and to lead him to act in a particular way. Now, if you approach it quite differently, you will find out for yourselves, as individuals, something real that is beyond all the limitations of beliefs, beyond the illusion of words..."

It's actually a lot longer but I'm tired of transcribing so if it seems like an incomplete thought, it sorta is.

What I love about Krishnamurti is... Growing up around religion all the way through high school (I went to public school but you were still looked at funny if you didnt accept the one and only Christ into your heart), I always fealt that organized religion had a monopoly on truth. So I got into Taoism and Confucianism but found those not totally applicable (I could be wrong). So I like when Krishnamurti explains that there is not only a great truth out there, but that it goes beyond mere belief and the deisre for comfort.
Post Wed Jul 30, 2003 11:05 pm
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tinkleDRINKER



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The_Human wrote:
hugh grants hooker wrote:
blunted - nope. you arent agnostic.
'not giving a fuck' is one of the forms of atheism.

there are 2 defintions of atheism, one of which pertains to those who argue that there is NO god what-so-ever and that believing in one is silly.
the other form of atheism suits you, people who dont know and dont care to know.
here is the one that suits you:

Atheist
A person who has no belief in a God or Goddess. Just as a newborn has no concept of a deity, some adults also have no such belief. The term "Atheist" is derived from the Greek words "a" which means "without" and "Theos" which means "God." A person can be a non-Theist by simply lacking a belief in God without actively denying God's existence. This is the definition of Atheism used by most Atheists.



So..................

Did anybody catch the World Poker Tournament on The Travel Channel today??


word! i'm fucking hooked on that shit! i knew paul had it from the begining
Post Wed Jul 30, 2003 11:25 pm
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The_Human



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tinkleDRINKER wrote:
The_Human wrote:
hugh grants hooker wrote:
blunted - nope. you arent agnostic.
'not giving a fuck' is one of the forms of atheism.

there are 2 defintions of atheism, one of which pertains to those who argue that there is NO god what-so-ever and that believing in one is silly.
the other form of atheism suits you, people who dont know and dont care to know.
here is the one that suits you:

Atheist
A person who has no belief in a God or Goddess. Just as a newborn has no concept of a deity, some adults also have no such belief. The term "Atheist" is derived from the Greek words "a" which means "without" and "Theos" which means "God." A person can be a non-Theist by simply lacking a belief in God without actively denying God's existence. This is the definition of Atheism used by most Atheists.



So..................

Did anybody catch the World Poker Tournament on The Travel Channel today??


word! i'm fucking hooked on that shit! i knew paul had it from the begining


Hes fucking bad ass. What did they say he was?? A rap promoter or something??
Post Thu Jul 31, 2003 12:17 am
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August Spies



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..

Last edited by August Spies on Thu Jul 31, 2003 12:37 am; edited 2 times in total
Post Thu Jul 31, 2003 12:29 am
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August Spies



Joined: 09 Aug 2002
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hugh grants hooker wrote:
and no, I'M not confused. i know what i believe. does this mean i'm claiming to know what god is? no.


Agnostics also know what they believe. So how are we confused again?

~ August Spies, ordained Minister in the UCTAA (Universal Church Triumphent of the Apathetic Agnostics)
Post Thu Jul 31, 2003 12:32 am
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August Spies



Joined: 09 Aug 2002
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Location: D.C.
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hugh grants hooker wrote:
Mike McDermot wrote:


It's all in how you look at it. The question of God doesn't bother some people that much. If I woke up and saw a calculous problem every morning, I'd probably ignore it.


if you would just ignore all this, then that fits the definition of atheism.

agnostics cant ignore it, they also cant figure it out.


Maybe we can't figure it out, but at least we aren't consistantly getting the wrong answer *cough cough*
Post Thu Jul 31, 2003 12:36 am
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hugh grants hooker
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go see a doctor about that cough.

if you know the wrong answer when you see it, then you obviously arent agnostic. haha
Post Thu Jul 31, 2003 12:50 am
 
Machiavel



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So just to summ things up for everyone.

Agnostic isnt non belief in a higher existence, it is belief that god cannot be proven to exist.

Agnostics should not be considered confused, Just because you do not know the answer doesnt mean you are confused by the question. Had Mr macdermont or whatever known a better analogy, he would have surposed instead of a calculus "problem" that there was a "proof". Now, suppose you come across this proof that no one could do, now, in trying to do it there is nothing confusing about it, but the proof seems to be unsolveable. Now go about trying to disprove this proof or axiom, only to find this does not exist either. So thus, you have something that is not confusing because you understand the principals, but can not be proven, and cannot be disproven.

a Great example of this is godels incompleteness theorem, which states that within the boundaries of formal set theorey you cannot prove formal set theorey. And yes if you understand this it means that our entire mathematical system is based on faith, or rather the axioms that our mathematical system is based on are based on faith.

The only difference between this and god is that you cant prove that god cannot be proven to exist, and math is infinitely more usefull than god is. Sorry god.

And calling agnostics confused is like calling christians stupid, sure it MAY be true, its just not fair though.

Penelope gave the same argument that blaise pascal gives in "the wager", but very broken down and easy to understand, and skipping all of the probabilistic ideas.
Post Thu Jul 31, 2003 1:04 am
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Krang
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Machiavel wrote:

And calling agnostics confused is like calling christians stupid, sure it MAY be true, its just not fair though.


hahaha


But yeah, i dont see being agnostic being confused, but more that they understand the confusion of the whole of humanity and the universe.

They realise that we have yet to prove if theres a higher power or not, thus they take an impartial stance, which can change if new evidence is presented.

Wisest is he who knows he knows nothing ;)
Post Thu Jul 31, 2003 1:12 am
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Billy Gnosis



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To whoever said being agnostic is being confused:

To claim you know what you can not prove shows clear dogmatic behaviour whether you absolutely believe god exists, or whether you deny his entire existence.

I'm smart enough to admit I don't know if there is this infinite energy source somewhere out there. I came to that decision a while ago.

"You've gotta have faith-faith-faith"

Never listen to a man who was in WHAM.
Post Thu Jul 31, 2003 2:01 am
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